NewYorkers Now Have Everything: WineShop of Only OrangeWines

[Jim_Brennan]

Well, Otto…in BobbyStuckey’s book on Friuli Wines & Food, he only applies the term ViniMacerati to wines made from white or gris grapes, not to wines made w/
red grapes. It goes without saying that red wines are ViniMacerati. Bobby doesn’t use that term for reds.

To some folks, me included, “orange” wines describes a wine that is orange in color. This was the terme originated by LeviDalton to describe any white made w/ skin-contact during fermentation. But there are plenty of skin-contact whites that are near colorless, and certainly not orange in color. And there are many that are brown in color, not orange. Some w/ clear oxidation, some not so much.

When somebody describes an “orange” wine, I understand that to mean in Levi’s original term…a skin-contact white. Even if the color is not orange.

But ViniMacerati has nothing to do w/ Bobby’s original coining of the term as applied to reds. To me, VM is a more accurate description of the wine than “orange”, when it may not be orange
in color at all. But I’m comfortable in people using “orange” wine when it refers to any skin-contact white.
Tom

If the term “orange” is what bugs you, what’s wrong with “skin-contact whites” or “macerated whites”? To me, “orange” nevertheless makes the most sense to me, since all the other styles of wine are described by their color (or closest approximation, even if the wine isn’t really of that particular color): red wines, white wines, rosé wines, yellow wines.

Well, Otto… I guess I just have a personal preference for the term ViniMacerati as to being more accurate than “Orange” wines.
When Levi first coined that term, it was almost exclusively for Friuli & Georgian & Slovene Wines. And they were almost always orange in color, to varying degrees. So it was an accurate descriptor. And often with oxidation present.
But as use of skin-contact during white wine ferments spread around the World, I noted that many were very pale in color, and not orange in color. So I didn’t feel " orange wine" was an accurate description.
So in all of my early posts, I almost always labeled them as “skin-contact whites”. “Orange wines” is much more succinct, but not always an accurate descriptor.
So when BobbyStuckey’s book came out and he used the term “vini macerati” as applied to (only) white wines, I immediately seized it as my preferred term for those wines.
But you are correct:
vini macerati =skin-contact whites=macerated whites= (sorta) orange wines. As long as we all know what we’re talking about.
But I will continue to use ViniMacerati (and VM is an easy abbreviation), probably it gives my posts on those wines a high-falutin’ cachet that I can only aspire to.
But we’re all in agreement that we’re talking about the same wines, no matter what terminology we use.
Tom

Maybe you can post this definition in its own thread, and have Todd sticky it, so that every time you post ViniMacerati, you can link it to that sticky thread so that people can look up this term. Or you could just call them orange wines.

[TomHill]

I did not invent the term orange wine. It was already in use in America and in Europe when I planned what I originally called the “Show Me Some Skin, Skin Contact Dinner” over a decade ago now. What became clear is that orange wine was the term that people preferred to use, which is how terms should be judged anyway, and so I went along with that.

For one, Italian Wine Merchants was referring to orange wines before I did that dinner. For another, there was an orange wine festival in Europe.

Anyway, until I see people complaining that Super Tuscans should be renamed because those bottles cannot fly, I’ll assume that people’s objections to whatever name have to do more with their dislike of the category, more than any fault with the name. As has been shown in the world of podcasting, where people used to use up all kinds of oxygen arguing about the name podcast, it mostly doesn’t matter what the name is. It matters whether the category is finding success or not. If the nomenclature isn’t hurting anybody, let’s move on.

Thanks, Levi, for clarifying that. I just remember the term “orange wine” being associated with your name. I stand corrected.
At those days long ago, it was Gravner/Radikon/Georgia, a bit of Slovenia, who were making those wines. Often in large Qvervi w/
prolonged skin-contact, often rather oxidized. The wines were, by & large, orange in color.
But as the process spread to other places, the skin-contact process changed and some/many were no longer orange in color.
I remember serving one of these lighter versions that was near colorless, but still had plenty of phenolic character, to a friend & labeled
it as an “orange” wine. He gave me this puzzled look because the wine was nowhere near orange in color. So at that point, I started
using the term “skin-contact whites”, regardless of the color, to characterize those wines. When Bobby & Lachlan’s book came out and
Bobby characterized those (white) wines as “vini macerati”, I knew, right then that, bingo, that was the term I was going to use.
But the issue is rather moot, because we all understand that
“orange wine”=“skin-contact white wine”= “vini macerati”

As you say about “podcast”, we all understand what the term means. Let’s, indeed, move on.
Tom

[DougS]

I tend to say “macerated whites” with wine geeks. They always know what I mean. “Orange wines” works fine in other groups. No single term describes them all correctly, in a literal sense, unless it’s too long to be useful in conversation.

The French term “rosé” seems to have caught on for pinkish wines from anywhere. Go figure.

I agree that as long as people generally know what you mean, it doesn’t matter.

[DougS]

Oh, and my success rate for drinkability (not a drain pour) on natural orange wines is pretty low. I do like some, though.

[alan_weinberg]

talk about specialized! Wow.

[Otto_Forsberg]

At those days long ago, it was Gravner/Radikon/Georgia, a bit of Slovenia, who were making those wines. Often in large Qvervi w/ prolonged skin-contact, often rather oxidized.

I don’t know what you’ve had, but this doesn’t correspond to my experiences. Most orange wines I’ve had don’t show any oxidized character.

[larry_schaffer]

This shop’s first job is already successful - folks are noticing and talking about them. As a niche shop, that’s one of the biggest challenges for sure.

This style of wine is certainly not my favorite, and I agree with others that my ‘miss rate’ has been much higher than finding ones that are spectacular. I have had a couple of Gravners thanks to the generosity of someone on the boards here that were darn right fantastic, but have had others that simply didn’t float my boar.

I wish the store good luck . . .

Cheers.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

My dad used to have a warehouse on that block (perhaps in that building) in the 1960s. The entire neighborhood was a shithole. My mother used to hate it when my father took me there because she thought it was too dangerous. However, he used it to teach me charity - he drove around the neighborhood and found what were then known as “bums.” He hired them to come and help us for a few hours in the warehouse. Nice to see that the gentrification has upped the quality of the neighborhood. I’ll have to stop by the next time I am downtown. Need to help local businesses get back on their feet.

[Pau1_M3nk3s]

Thanks Tom for the OP. Where I live there are 2 stores within biking distance that only sell what they import (North Berkeley Wine & Kermit Lynch). So, for me, the concept of an “orange” wine store doesn’t seem that far fetched. I for one wouldn’t mind checking it out.

[Jay_Miller]

I did not invent the term orange wine. It was already in use in America and in Europe when I planned what I originally called the “Show Me Some Skin, Skin Contact Dinner” over a decade ago now. …

That was such a great dinner.

[Howard_Cooper]

Those NewYorkers are soooo luck. Now they have a wine shop devoted exclusively to “orange” wines:
World's First Exclusively Orange Wine Shop Opens in NYC

opened by DoreenWinkler. Apparently she hasn’t heard of the “ViniMacerati” term which more accurately describes
what many call “orange” wines. Some/many VM have virtually no color at all unless made from “gris” grapes, if the skin-contact time
during fermentation is relatively short, though they can still show plenty of phenolic character.

The best part is that all the wines will be “natural, organic, and biodynamic”. Which mean you’re gonna have to kiss a
lot of frogs to find a prince.

First they get AliceFeiring. Now DoreenWinkler. Those NewYorkers get to have it all !! 'Tain’t fair.
Tom

You should move to NYC and open a wine store devoted solely to Ridge wines. Open it up right next to the orange wine store and show people what wine should taste like.