Noble Grapes

[Gary_York]

Not all, but quite a few.

[M_Dildine]

@Gary York

Not all, but quite a few.

And let me guess … You have no commercial interest in that opinion?

[CJ_Beazley]

@Ken V

I think anyone posting on which grapes are noble should have their nose in the air. And when they drink, they must put their pinky in the air as well.

You do mean your little finger don’t you? Just want to make sure “pinky” isn’t a euphemism you older guys use for “something else”

[Robert_B]

I want to thank all of you. This is exactly the discussion I was hoping to get.

I was really surprised which grapes were on the list and which ones were not.

[Gary_York]

You have discovered me. And uncovered my secret Erbaluce world domination program. Thereby enriching myself beyond the dreams of avarice.

[Gary_York]

Trust me on this, there is a hell of a lot more money in Zin and Chard than Erbaluce and Freisa. Not to mention it is just a little easier to sell.

[John_Morris]

@M. Dildine

@Gary York

Nothing noble about Zinfandel. Probably ten grapes that should be considered in front of it.

And let me guess … they’re all Italian?

Let’s not forget that zin is sort of Italian – Croatian via Italy.

[Eric_Ifune]

How about Terrantez. Produces some of the very greatest of an iconic wine, Madeira.

[GregT]

Btw, “muscat” is a descriptor part of some grape names, the same way “petit”, “tinta” or “blanc” are. Some of the different muscat grapes are very distantly related to each other. That seems to be a characteristic in the genetic material that can toggle on and off with mutation. “Gewurz” is pretty much the same descriptor, meaning aromatically floral/spicy. Gewurztraminer is a mutation of Traminer.

Pinot Gris is a mutation of Pinot Noir, so it’s technically the same variety. Of course there are some pretty shitty clones of Pinot Noir out there. There’s also some spectacular late harvest Alsatian Pinot Gris.

That’s a great point! And it kind of ties in with Eric above. Madeira was beloved of the Brits and the Founding Fathers in the 18th century, fell out of favor, and was not really revived until good folks like Manny Berk figured out how to market it again in the late 1900s.

And Muscat de Alexandria? It may be the oldest continually-cultivated grape in the world, certainly considered worthy by the Phoenicians and Greeks. Today it earns slight regard, but is that because there is something inherently wrong with the grape or because fashion and tastes have changed? I think it’s the latter because the grape can produce some excellent wine in the even more slightly regarded Rivesaltes.

Best thing about it? You can enjoy it with the pinky raised or in repose.

[Tim_Heaton]

@GregT

Robert -

It’s more or less a bullshit term that was coined years ago by people who liked several grapes more than others. There’s no “official” definition anywhere and it’s only recently that things like Tempranillo would be included, much less things like Pinot Grigio.

Basically, the term came from a time around WWI and WW2 when the French wine industry was the only one really important on the world market, the industries of other countries having been bombed back into the last century.

From the great Emile Peynaud:

“. . . There are noble varieties which are the only ones capable of producing wines of refinement and longevity, recognizable for their fine flavor and the power and individuality of their aromas. Some of these have become so well adapted to their original production zones that, transplanted elsewhere, they become virtually unrecognizable. Such is the case with Pinot and Merlot. Other noble varieties such as Riesling and Cabernet Sauvignon have a more stable character and their more general success has meant that they are planted worldwide.

There are also semi-noble varieties which can produce and excellent wine in a particular area, but which yield something very ordinary elsewhere. Example of these are the Tempranillo in Rioja, the Palomino in Jerez, the Nebbiolo in Piedmont, the Sangiovese in Chianti, the Grenache in Chateauneuf du Pape, Navarre or Sardinia, and many others.

Finally, there are the common grape varieties with produce neutral table wines of little quality. They are grown purely for their high yield which makes an indifferent product profitable; often, alas, all to profitable.”

He gives a tip of the hat to Riesling, which in his youth made some of the most expensive wines in the world, and he notes Palomino, because that too was very important in the British market of the Victorian era.

But his context is clearly France and he included only six grapes. Most importantly, he spoke before the death of Franco, the fall of the Iron Curtain, the death of Pinochet, the end of Argentine dictatorship, the rise of Australia, and the end of apartheid, not to mention the explosion of interest in the US. Washington and Oregon didn’t even exist as serious wine making regions when he spoke, much less New York, New Zealand, and Michigan, and places like Greece, Austria, Portugal, Hungary, Romania, and Croatia were losing centuries of tradition, some of it pre-dating wine production in France.

People use the term as if it means something, but it doesn’t. Garnacha in Priorat? Well that came along in the 1990s. The grape planted for high yield all over the south of France? Carignan, which people have since learned can make profound, age-worthy wines.

So IMO, it’s really a term that does nothing except show ignorance. For all his knowledge, he was, and had to be, ignorant of the revolution in the wine world that was going to take place in the next fifty years. One can forgive him because he was a serious and passionate student of grapes and wine and given the circumstances of the time, he was probably quite correct. But it’s flat out dumb for people to keep using the term today. There’s no reason to suppose that the entire planet has been planted with every possible type of grape that can ever exist and of those, only six merit attention. And it’s even more ridiculous for people to suggest that no, it’s not six, it’s now sixteen! They need to learn more, taste more, and be less dismissive of things they don’t know.

And I agree that there’s nothing wrong with Zin! I also agree with Oliver except that I wouldn’t add Fiano and since I don’t care for Pinot Noir in general, I’d kill that too. See how pointless it gets?

This

[Geir_A]

What I like is noble.

Everyone else drinks plonk.

[DougS]

I agree that it’s pointless to talk about which grapes are “noble”.

I will say, though, that those who do not think Gewürztraminer is capable of refinement and longevity have obviously never had a well aged Trimbach Cuvee des Seigneurs de Ribeaupierre from a very good vintage. Or they just don’t like the grape and think that’s reason for it not being “great”. I suspect it’s the former.

[Kevin_M_L]

Gary, I just got my hands on some 2006 Orsolani Sulé.

[Jim_Brennan]

Gamay.

Now you may argue amongst yourselves.

[GregT]

And that’s the perfect example isn’t it? In one region, the Duke decided it was a “disloyal” grape and he ordered it removed. Of course, that didn’t work because people kept planting it anyway so his grandson had to order it again. Eventually people figured out that it works better in some regions than others and it kind of sorted itself out. There’s nothing wrong with a great Gamay from the right region and people can easily confuse it for Pinot Noir, but since it doesn’t do as well in parts of Burgundy as PN does, it gets disrespected more than it should.

One thing I like about wine is that every now and then you have a glass of something that completely resets your scale. I no longer believe that there are any grapes that are inherently inferior to others when it comes to wine making, because even once you get past the production, it’s the drinker who makes the final analysis. Even Pinotage! I’ve had some that aren’t all that bad, which means there’s promise.

[Oliver_McCrum]

Geir,

I agree, in the right place almost anything can be really interesting. For example, Mueller Thurgau is usually viewed as producing only horrible German plonk like Liebfraumilch, but when planted in the Alto Adige it can make delicious wine, even great wine (Feldmarschall).

[John_Morris]

@Oliver McCrum

For example, Mueller Thurgau is usually viewed as producing only horrible German plonk like Liebfraumilch, but when planted in the Alto Adige it can make delicious wine.

+1

[Bob_Hughes]

I guess when I think about the concept of “noble grapes”, there is an implication that the grape is capable of producing a great wine, and I think one of the implications of greatness in wine is the ability to stand the test of time. So for me, at least, I think it’s inarguable that grapes like Chardonnay (at least in the pre-mox era) and Riesling were/are capable of producing wines that are undeniably great.

So I’ll disagree a bit when it comes to something like Muller Thurgau - I love the white wines from Alto Adige, and from a personal consumption standpoint you will generally always be able to find bottles from the Alto dige in my cellar. And I’ve certainly had wines from the Alto Adige that I would describe as great QPR. But I’ve never had a Muller Thurgau that made me sit back and say, yes, this is a wine that could run with Clos Ste. Hune, or Donnhoff, or Dauvissat. Are they tasty and fun to drink - absolutely! Just not great.

[M_Dildine]

Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Riesling and Sauvignon Blanc? These six and that’s it?

Any grapes you’d like to add? For me, consider Zinfandel, Mataro and Chenin Blanc.

[Larry_Link]

Nebbiolo