On Palate Fatigue and Aging - An Anecdote

[Kris_Patten]

Damn!

Pops is now digging my “Outhouse of Loire” wines!

Enjoying a Baudry Chinon Les Grezeaux!

There is hope for the old man!

Palate fade and a switch to merde-wines is a real issue for older Americans!

[Robert.A.Jr]

Damn!

Pops is now digging my “Outhouse of Loire” wines!

Enjoying a Baudry Chinon Les Grezeaux!

There is hope for the old man!

Palate fade and a switch to merde-wines is a real issue for older Americans!

Well, you know the old saying, we start in diapers and end in diapers. So quite apropos!

[Howard_Cooper]

Damn!

Pops is now digging my “Outhouse of Loire” wines!

Enjoying a Baudry Chinon Les Grezeaux!

There is hope for the old man!

We are not worried about your father’s palate. As for you, on the other hand, different story. Are you still drinking Ovid?

[Tom_Blach]

I suspect that we should probably be more cognizant of palate changes as we age – and not just for age 75+. Here’s a blurb from Cleveland Clinic website:
“…As we age, the number of taste buds that we have decreases. This usually begins to occur in our 40s if we’re female or in our 50s if we’re male. At the same time, our remaining taste buds also begin to shrink, or atrophy, and do not function as well. This results in decreased sensitivity to taste, typically affecting salty or sweet, and eventually sour or bitter foods. Around the same time, our sense of smell may also start to decrease, which can contribute to the loss of taste.”

How do these effects impact our enjoyment of different wines? One might surmise that as sensitivity declines, 1) wines with more sugar can become more attractive, 2) bitter tannins would not be as much of a turnoff in big, young wines, 3) sense of “balance” gets redefined, 4) etc.

To complement the anecdotes, it’d be great to hear from some science-types.

Is it not more about the memory bank, which becomes fuller as the sensitivity of the tasting apparatus theoretically declines? it seems to me that the way the brain interprets the signals sent continues to evolve and even compensate for the signals becoming weaker. I don’t think any of us experiences flavour with anything like the raw immediacy of perception of a five year old but it doesn’t necessarily help the young palate to be more appreciative.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Damn!

Pops is now digging my “Outhouse of Loire” wines!

Enjoying a Baudry Chinon Les Grezeaux!

There is hope for the old man!

We are not worried about your father’s palate. As for you, on the other hand, different story. Are you still drinking Ovid?

We had a Baby Harlan last night. Neither of us liked it. There remains hope . . . .

[Warren_Taranow]

Damn!

Pops is now digging my “Outhouse of Loire” wines!

Enjoying a Baudry Chinon Les Grezeaux!

There is hope for the old man!

C’mon, Robert. He’s just being nice. Like when he loved that hanging key holder you made him in elementary school.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Damn!

Pops is now digging my “Outhouse of Loire” wines!

Enjoying a Baudry Chinon Les Grezeaux!

There is hope for the old man!

C’mon, Robert. He’s just being nice. Like when he loved that hanging key holder you made him in elementary school.

I demand to be special!

[K_John_Joseph]

A decline in taste buds may or may not parallel what happens to our olfactory sense.

To my understanding, they don’t go the same way. Olfactory sense is something one can keep alive by constantly using it consciously, because it trains the neural connections there. Conversely, if one doesn’t use their sense of smell consciously and often, it can sort of wilt away even at quite young age as neurons become passive if they are not constantly used. However, as long as they are there, one can always start training their nose by smelling stuff constantly and consciously.

Some olfactory deterioration usually starts to happen at the age of 60 as aging neurons don’t get replaced by new ones and, to my understanding, men are more affected than women. However, the progress of this can be slowed down and even halted by the constant use of the olfactory sense, and wine tasting - if anything - is the perfect means for this. In our tasting group is an elderly couple in their 80’s, and they still are keen tasters, both having an acute sense of smell and still retaining a preference for leaner, old-school wines over modernized fruit bombs. It’s obvious age has done very little for their olfactory sense - and I’d ascribe this fact to constant wine tasting than to plain luck.

Fun post, Otto. I do agree with this about using your nose deliberately [pause for my crew making jokes about my rather large nose]. Smelling everything and really paying attention is a game changer. That’s how I got into wine. I saw tasting notes and one time picked up a note and saw it in a tasting note. Then started really paying attention. Smelling everything. Reading everything. Smelling, tasting, comparing. Using le nez du vin for aromas and working on that for a bit. It’s like anything. There is talent, but there is also hard work, repetitions, and deliberate practice, and that helps improvement greatly.

[K_John_Joseph]

I’ll share my pops, who is quite a bit younger than Alfert’s. We never had wine in the house growing up. Some Coors Light, and maybe a Glenlivet 12, usually with soda. Wine was for Christmas and Thanksgiving and maybe Easter dinners, and usually something cheap like Toasted Head picked up from the gas station on the last work day before the holiday. By the time I was 15-16 we’d get a sherry glass size of it with those dinners and I was fairly confident wine sucked ass. But my dad’s business partner at the time had grown up in Highland Park in Dallas, and wine was a thing that rich folks typically did. So to celebrate a very good year for their business, he setup a trip to Napa. My old man realized he could fairly easily tell the difference between the cheap, decent, good, and purportedly great. He got really excited and started buying wine, got into spectator when Laube was a rock for California, and bought a bunch of pretty good stuff in the mid 90s forward. I remember 1995 Pride cab blowing my mind as a junior in college. He then did what most folks do. Go bigger chasing points. So Aussie shiraz from late 90s through mid 2000s. Russian River pinots from Kosta Browne. The occasional Martinelli Zin.

And that broke his palate for those big jammy wines. I vaguely recall being in Sonoma drinking some huge zin and he kinda decided nah, this is too much. So I found him some 1996 second and third growth bordeaux, some 2001 barolo, and very rarely, some burgundy. He loved white burgundy, enjoyed the bordeaux but didn’t love it. Same for the barolo. But he liked the acid in some of those wines, compared to the big napa cabs (which he still enjoyed and enjoys with a steak). He figured he’d take a stab at Oregon to see what the fuss was about, and he fell absolutely head over heels. I’d say about 70% of his wine is now a smattering of Oregon pinots and chards. His big wines are now mostly classically styled rioja, or a cab with some age on it. I’ve tried to nudge him to champagne, but he’ll do about a glass then get antsy for the red wine.

I’d say his journey and mine are pretty similar. Went big and then bigger and then busted. Decided wildly complex and aromatic noses are better than big rich palates. Most of my stuff is now oregon pinot, oregon chard, a few lower abv sonoma coast pinots like RAEN and a couple Failla, bordeaux, a smattering of young burgundy, some barolo and brunello, northern rhones, some napa cabs from a trip during the 16 vintage, and a slew of older Napa cabs from 91 to 04. And champagne, of course, though I drink through it so fast I’m always playing the restock game.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Great post, John!

So when I sent you that Croix Boissee some moons ago, were you still drinking “big” wines? I will say you got me thinking about and appreciating more, vintage champagne. I drank a fair bit but never in any comparative way to appreciate the nuances and differences of the major houses. I’ve got my Pops drinking top-end Scotch - he now wants 18 or nothing - but champagne eludes him.

[GregT]

Whatever he likes Robert, it’s very cool that you get to drink wine with your dad. And still going in his 80s. Whatever he drinks, you’re a very lucky man.

[Guillermo_M]

Quit the zinc. There’s no chance that it’s going to help you with anything, and a substantial chance it will screw up your palate. In fact, there’s little chance that any of the vitamins will do you any good, unless you have pernicious anemia (vitamin B-12), or if you haven’t stepped foot outside for a year (vitamin D).

I have a dog. I set foot outside. Still, low vitamin D was the only thing flagged in my last comprehensive blood work earlier this month. I need to buy more rosé that will force me to sit in the sun.

[john_stimson]

Quit the zinc. There’s no chance that it’s going to help you with anything, and a substantial chance it will screw up your palate. In fact, there’s little chance that any of the vitamins will do you any good, unless you have pernicious anemia (vitamin B-12), or if you haven’t stepped foot outside for a year (vitamin D).

I have a dog. I set foot outside. Still, low vitamin D was the only thing flagged in my last comprehensive blood work earlier this month. I need to buy more rosé that will force me to sit in the sun.

Perfect strategy! Have it with some cheese, which seems to have some vitamin D precursors in it, and do it repeatedly.

[P_L_owet]

I suspect that we should probably be more cognizant of palate changes as we age – and not just for age 75+. Here’s a blurb from Cleveland Clinic website:
“…As we age, the number of taste buds that we have decreases. This usually begins to occur in our 40s if we’re female or in our 50s if we’re male. At the same time, our remaining taste buds also begin to shrink, or atrophy, and do not function as well. This results in decreased sensitivity to taste, typically affecting salty or sweet, and eventually sour or bitter foods. Around the same time, our sense of smell may also start to decrease, which can contribute to the loss of taste.”

How do these effects impact our enjoyment of different wines? One might surmise that as sensitivity declines, 1) wines with more sugar can become more attractive, 2) bitter tannins would not be as much of a turnoff in big, young wines, 3) sense of “balance” gets redefined, 4) etc.

To complement the anecdotes, it’d be great to hear from some science-types.

Is it not more about the memory bank, which becomes fuller as the sensitivity of the tasting apparatus theoretically declines? it seems to me that the way the brain interprets the signals sent continues to evolve and even compensate for the signals becoming weaker. I don’t think any of us experiences flavour with anything like the raw immediacy of perception of a five year old but it doesn’t necessarily help the young palate to be more appreciative.

Yes and no. Your point is well taken about appreciation. However, we should keep in mind that a person’s sensitivity declines at different rates for different tastes, so our perception changes, rather than simply weakening.

Recalling a non-wine example, years ago I heard from marketers that Pringles potato chips (crisps) – which have less salt than competitors – are most appealing to young children and older adults. (Disregard for our purposes that they also have an artificial flavor. ) Why? 1) children have high perception of salt, so too much will overwhelm the other flavors and 2) older adults don’t taste the other flavors as much, so the salt in a regular chip/crisp stands out too much. Adults in their “tasting prime” may prefer chips/crisps with more interesting flavors, and salt can further heighten those flavors.

Again, I’d rely on scientists to tell us if this analogy is relevant to wine.

[T_Melloni]

The backdrop: My Dad introduced me to wine. He and my mother always had wine at the dinner table, and as my sister and I got into our teens, we had a little bit on some evenings. Alcohol was never a taboo in our house. As I moved on to law school, and started showing some interest in wine myself, my Dad started introducing me to the good stuff. . . .

And the cool parts is, he is 83 but very healthy. Both he and my mom are healthy and enjoying the good life, which includes lots of fine wine.

This makes me happy.

My dad introduced me to wine - but it was usually only holiday meals. Wine did not make a regular appearance at the dinner table. Beer was typically not drunk in the house, unless my grandfather came up from the Bronx to visit with an uncle when they used to cut the grass, trim the hedges and then, with my grandmother and aunt having cooked all day, they would have a picnic on our lawn.
My dad’s close friend would travel regularly and pick up cases of classified Bordeaux and Dom Perignon and my dad would buy a few bottles here and there - Latour and Cos D’Estournel were some I remember. He would put them in the cool basement - saving them “for special occasions.” He was too frugal to open many of them. I have a few bottles that he gave me.

And then he passed away. And I miss him.

Robert - Happy for you that you have both your parents in your life and that you get to share time together. That is the blessing - no matter what wine is on the table.

[Robert.A.Jr]

The backdrop: My Dad introduced me to wine. He and my mother always had wine at the dinner table, and as my sister and I got into our teens, we had a little bit on some evenings. Alcohol was never a taboo in our house. As I moved on to law school, and started showing some interest in wine myself, my Dad started introducing me to the good stuff. . . .

And the cool parts is, he is 83 but very healthy. Both he and my mom are healthy and enjoying the good life, which includes lots of fine wine.

This makes me happy.

My dad introduced me to wine - but it was usually only holiday meals. Wine did not make a regular appearance at the dinner table. Beer was typically not drunk in the house, unless my grandfather came up from the Bronx to visit with an uncle when they used to cut the grass, trim the hedges and then, with my grandmother and aunt having cooked all day, they would have a picnic on our lawn.
My dad’s close friend would travel regularly and pick up cases of classified Bordeaux and Dom Perignon and my dad would buy a few bottles here and there - Latour and Cos D’Estournel were some I remember. He would put them in the cool basement - saving them “for special occasions.” He was too frugal to open many of them. I have a few bottles that he gave me.

And then he passed away. And I miss him.

Robert - Happy for you that you have both your parents in your life and that you get to share time together. That is the blessing - no matter what wine is on the table.

No doubt, and thanks for the comments!

I’m very close to this older brother as well, my uncle. I have jokingly said to my dad that I am more like this brother, jokingly of course, that he’s the better athlete and intellect while my dad is the aerospace nerd. He chuckles. His brother lived all over the world, including Paris. His knowledge of and appreciation for fine French wine is awesome. They are all coming over for dinner next month, I plan on opening some whoppers. My mom encouraged it, reminding me - as if I needed that - that the brother is now 86. Hint hint.

On the flip-side, I have done likewise with my son, on everything - travel, cuisine, art, wine, you name it. While we may not realize it then, kids are like sponges. Now at 23, and while seemingly more a frat bro jock, he actually has a very sophisticated palate on many things. He and his buddies love champagne and fine whisky, and just recently, he’s been venturing into red wine. He brought a girlfriend over last year and I popped a Vatan without saying anything about what it was. I let that convo evolve. The wine shined without my words. And they loved it.

The beauty of wine.