Anytime!
on a somewhat-related note … if you ever find yourself in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, do yourself a huge favor and stop-in at Cecil’s 
– their pastrami is the “real deal” – and their freshly-baked caraway rye is “silly good” … gawd, I’m making myself drool just thinking about this. [we need a drooling smiley]
So I found this at Costco last week:
It’s been a very long time since I ate pastrami at the Carnegie, preferring the fattier pastrami and the rye bread at the original 2nd Avenue Deli (R.I.P.). But I did have high hopes. I even baked up a loaf of rye in its honor.
If you like completely lean pastrami, this is for you. If you like flavorless pastrami, this is also for you. Not even the slightest hint of smoke flavor or any other flavor. The people at Carnegie, who sold their good name for this cynical marketing ploy, should be forced to eat this garbage.
Come visit NJ, Harolds Deli has two location and an unbelievable pastrami, not too lean, one serving will easily make 5-6 sandwiches, rye and mustard of course.
Earlier this summer, the Food Channel (or was it the Travel Channel) did a taste-off between Katz’s and Carnegie. The winner was the pastrami at Katz’s Deli. As a matter of fact, I’ll be in the city tomorrow. Hopefully I can make the time for lunch.
Never been to Harold’s. but it does seem like “Harold” doesn’t “have” two locations. ![[oops.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/1/1f129ddad071ffe5db6c99817c3cab666035a70a.gif "oops"){kind=small}
I don’t think any of the places, whether they dry or wet cure, use actual wood smoke anymore…I do…but…I read that regs in the City preclude wood smoking…or something. So, they use the smoke from drippings during the process.
Two locations, one in Edison and the other in Parsipany
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I meant to post that earlier…not related places…it seems.
I’ve wanted to try the Edison one for years…but…
Just out of curiosity was it even a brisket? Sounds almost like what the people like Boar’s head call pastrami which is a top round or even a bottom round with some pastrami seasonings, caramel coloring, smoke flavoring etc. added. Those two cuts could of course never be Kosher so …
And anyone that tells you to put ostensibly edible meat in a microwave shouldn’t be trusted to sell you anything edible anyway.
It could have been a small, heavily-trimmed piece of brisket flat. Hard to tell. Although I always make pastrami from brisket, other cuts are acceptable. Niman Ranch sells a semi-decent pastrami made from the navel cut - still a bit too lean for my taste.
Eric, come down to L.A. and you can visit Langer’s. Personally, I like it better than Katz’.
I prefer the pastrami at Katz and the rye at Langer’s. The differences, however, are nitpicky and really not of much consequence. Blind, I’m not sure I’d be able to tell the difference between a pastrami on rye from Katz and one from Langer’s. … damn, now I want Langer’s.
Navel is the cut traditionally used for pastrami. But the key word is fat, you need the fat for the smoking process and steaming. Trying to make pastrami with a lean cut is just wasting time.
Navel is a fatty…and difficult to chew cut of beef, with lots of waste. I’ve cured/smoked with it, but prefer to use the whole brisket…ie, the one with the fat and deckle still on. I think , though, you have to steam it for a long time after smoking to tenderize it…but it’s worth it…for me.
Not sure I understand the steaming step. Slow smoking brisket long enough to break down the collagen is a standard method. I slow-smoke both cured and uncured packer-cut brisket to the point where the meat is juicy and tender, without steaming. I’d say it takes cured brisket a little less time to get tender, probably because the cure has a denaturing effect on the proteins. I might gently steam it later to reheat, but more often hold and heat it in some beef stock if not consuming immediately.
Smoking and steaming is more often used in the commercial setting where shrinkage is a major economic concern when the final product is being sold by weight. I think the relative dryness of the smoker encourages shrinkage, which serves to concentrate the beefy flavor - a good thing IMO.
The challenge for me in this type of cooking is getting both the flat and point portions of the whole brisket done at the same time. For pastrami these days I separate the flat and point. The point is cured and smoked. The flat is reserved for braising, burgers, etc.
Our last visit to Katz (last summer) was very disappointing. In fact, only the corned beef was truly as terrific as I recalled from my youth. Time for a Langer’s run…
so, i assume their bread used to be better? (Kataz’ whole $50-for-a-lost-ticket thing really gnaws at me, too: when we visited (about a year ago), Ashley nearly lost hers – she had to back-track to our table (at which other patrons had already sat down) to find it. It’s a system that’s designed to, at best, do nothing for the customer or, at worst, really screw him or her over.
Bill, like pizza, pastrami is one of the holy grails of cooking…I’ve made pastrami about7-8 times…and it is only the last time that my younger son said it was excellent…and he’s not even a real “maven”; he doesn’t get why it’s that important to me. As far as I can tell, making “real” pastrami involves a dry rub for a week-10 days; then cleaning and smoking, but only for few hours (maybe up to 5), so the normal tenderizing from long and slow isn’t a benefit; then, steaming for hours on a low heat…and serving…or stopping and reheating at some point. Long smoking might be good, but…it’s not the real texture. (And, some of the places in NY don’t use real smoke, and wet cure, like pickles, so too much wood smoke is not, to me, really good for pastrami.)
I’ve used packer cut brisket and the navel…I much prefer the brisket, though separating the two cuts…would, IMO, ruin the real pastrami effect of having them together, simulating the authentic “navel” cut (which is tough and full of waste that needs to be trimmed): a little lean and some fat mixed in every bite. Bottom line: the flat cut is incapable of making “real” pastrami a la Katz, Carnegie, et als. It is too lean and it is difficult for the dry rub/nitrates to even permeate without piercing it.
Of course, all this stuff is “pastrami” by some definition, as are other cuts, methods, etc…But…my holy grail model is Katz’s/Carnegie…and steaming is a big part of the tenderizing.
Did you read/have “Save the Deli”? or know the site…? Amazon.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It’s a great read and provides some insights into the pastrami process…though no recipe for it. (I did contact the author, who gave me someone’s recipe…but…)
Stuart,
I’ve got to agree with you about “holy grail” foods. Mine are pizza, pastrami, bagels, and BBQ. Strong opinions lead to religious wars. Worse than Mac vs. PC.
I started smoking and curing pastrami over 30 years ago after a visit to the now-defunct Pastrami King in Queens. At the time it was far better than any of the Manhattan delis, IMO. My efforts over the years - curing and smoking well over a hundred pastramis - have been focused on reproducing their amazing pastrami. It is very possible that fans of the Katz or others would not like my pastrami.
Thanks for recommending that book. I’ve never heard of it, but the author sounds like my compadre.
I had a real pastrami sandwich at Katz’s last Tuesday after a Scholium tasting. It doesn’t get any better . . . BUT a year or two ago I made a tongue pastrami that was pretty close. First, I pickled a tongue in real carcinogenic KNO3 for 10 days. Then I boiled it to remove the skin, rubbed it with a fresh ground coriander, pepper, salt and paprika rub, and smoked it for about 6 hours. The fat in the tongue held up and the flavor was outstanding.