Petrol smell in Riesling 'a mistake': Chapoutier

WINE TALK
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“The Riesling Dumbass Brigade”… perfect…all we need is a flag or banner, and an annual meeting. But no bylaws. I hate rules.

So now I say unto you…Brothers…Sisters…arise and be counted. No longer will we hang our heads in shame or seek solace in private.
Say it loud and say it proud: “I’m a member of the RDB, and damn proud of it”.

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+1
Surely there must be more apt spokesmen to such a statement! Would love to hear a response from one of the Alsatian ‘greats’ anyone in the Trimbach family or Olivier Humbrecht! Admittedly I never characterize the note as outright petrol but get it more as the smell you get from petrol based products, which I do enjoy but like any other grape characteristic too much of anything is just becomes monotonous!

I never really understood the all too clinical approach to wine-making, the engineer/chemist vintner seems like sex without orgasms! Chapoutier should make time for a visit in Henri Bonneau’s cellars in Châteauneuf, for me the choice is easy!

One a side-note an extract from the article
“Chapoutier was showing seven wines: five Rieslings, a Pinot Gris and a Sylvaner, from a 5ha domaine in Bernardvillé that he runs as a joint venture with four friends, none of whom are wine professionals.” Coincidence?:stuck_out_tongue:

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It already existed. We call it the German Wine Society. www.germanwinesociety.org

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I don’t mind a hint of kerosene or whatever we call it (I usually say “petrol”) but the most petrolly Riesling I can recall was from Two Mountains in Washington State. It was a delightful wine the year of release. I bought a bottle or two to take back to North Carolina and let it sit a couple years and it became undrinkable. Lesson learned. If I buy more of their Riesling I will consume it the same year.

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Hi all, I find reactions here and on Decanter’s page not really fair around Chapoutier’s statement. Placed in the right context it does make much more sense!

Judge by yourself:

DRINKS MEDIA WIRES F http://www.drinksmediawire.com/afficher_cdp.asp?id=8201&lng=1&lg=FR
DRINKS MEDIA WIRES GB http://www.drinksmediawire.com/afficher_cdp.asp?id=8201&lng=2

Greetings from the Netherlands

Christian

47

This is a ridiculous comment. That means that 95% of Riesling producers have been creating this defect for the past 100 years.

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I have to say after having read the article and recently sampling Austrian and German Rieslings, Gewurztraminers and Scheurebes and even a Pinot Noir icewine with this petrol nose characteristic, I can see where the man is coming from and don’t find what he says to be that unreasonable. I actually found that it was the Gewurztraminer Spatlese that was ruined by a dominating petrol nose and taste that actually got worse on the second day. The Rieslings were just fine as was the Scheurebe.

Strangely, I find the Pinot Noir icewine to have the strongest petrol nose of all, to the point where it smells like a hot rubber tire just coming off the road on a hot day after a long drive. Yet, it actually contributes to the taste of the icewine because the strong complex flavors can stand up to and even benefit from the petrol nose and flavor.

I think what throws me off is that the petrol nose is so contrary to what the wines actually taste like. That only makes it even more intriguing to me, unless it overwhelms the wine of course. A good analogy to this would be a durian jackfruit, which stinks to high heaven but once in your mouth is actually a very sweet and juicy flavor.

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Hot rubber is not the same as the (poorly named) petrol. Hot rubber is generally a reductive aroma.

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With petrol approaching $5 a gallon out there, I think that you have to consider yourselves lucky to get even a whiff of petrol! [cheers.gif]

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I don’t know that the source is a “mistake” but I certainly drink quite a few moderately aged Germans where I think the profile is a flaw. Even though I’m used to it, and not surprised by it, it certainly seems more of a negative element than a positive. Which is why a lot of less experienced drinkers are put off a bit. It’s accepted as being a part of the wine, but beyond very small nuances, I’d rather not have it. Same with brett, which I like even less.
That flavor is not one that a person finds or would consider normal in food or drink. It also seems like it can be a very strong flavor with the possibility of outshowing other elements. I actually was not aware that it fades in wine aged beyond “adolescence”. I have the feeling that adolecent in those terms means almost senior citizen to me. I drink very few rieslings beyond 15-17 years old, and most at the 4-10 mark. It seems to me that the petrol increases from the 5-15 year marks.

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Hello,
Lots of thoughts about that issue, I’ll try to summerize:

  • First, it depends what is called petrol. Chapoutier here wanted to speak about the very intense petrol flavors, not about the mineral flavors that some people would call petrol
    -Then keep in mind that he is trying to start selling Alsace wines… he needed a buzz!
    -But I agree with him when he says that the petrol flavors come from a particular type of wine making, and is not typical of a particular terroir or grape variety. Petrol notes come only from not very ripe grapes. So it depends of what you like: I always prefer to pick fully ripe grapes, so I would consider these grapes as unripe. But other growers would consider my grapes as too ripe… particulary in Germany where they prefer don’t to harvest as ripe as here in Alsace: that’s also a part of the reasons why you have more often petrol notes in Germany than in Alsace. Then, the components that will give the petrol notes after aging are in the skins of the berries. So if you crush the grapes or harvest with a machine, you will have more petrol notes after aging than if you harvest by hand and press very smoothly. Again, it is a questions of choice: the first wines will be much more expressive when young, with nice muscat flavors, and then develop those petrol notes. The second ones will be more closed in their youth and keep more floral and mineral notes beside just a hint of petrol after aging. I again ptrefer the second way, to preserve all the character of the terroir and the fruit character. But some other producers would prefer it the other way… So I have my own preference of course, and I have the same preference than Chapoutier. But it is not a reason for me to consider that all what I don’t like is a flaw!! Each producer has his style, each taster his tastes: if the tasters find the producers they like, I don’t see any problem!
    -20 years ago, producers usually didn’t managed to harvest as ripe grapes as now, and they didn’t have the techniques to keep healthy grapes during pressing: they usually crushed the grapes before pressing. That’s why in the past most of the wines here had this petrol notes. Nowadays, with lower yields, dryer weather, better farming, more growers manage to have riper grapes. But some growers continue to produce “old style” wines, so you have more diversity and not the petrol flavors all the time. My parents started very early to discrease yields, and ameliorate the maturity level. So I have 20 years old rieslings with a lot of minerals and wet stone flavors (that some people would describe as petrol…), but with not or just a hint of petrol.
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Florian –

Are you Alsatians and we German wine lovers talking about different things? That petrol is a classic element of the very best German rieslings, including Spatlesen, Auslesen and higher levels in middle age, and those wines certainly aren’t picked unripe.

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Unless you compare them to ZH Rieslings, then beerenauslesen are unripe. [wink.gif]

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:slight_smile:

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:slight_smile:)
Seriously, you noticed that when I say unripe, it is to my taste but not in general: it is a question of taste and choice, it is not a flaw, like for the petrol. For instance Trimbach don’t like very high maturity level, so they have more petrol character than ZH or others. Who is better between Trimbach and ZH? This is a question of taste, it is not possible to compare and to say one is better. You guess that my choice will be ZH, but I understand that your choice could be Trimbach (who I like too, but not as much as ZH).
And it is rare in Alsace, at least for most of the good producers you know, to find a wine with less initial sugar content than a high level spatlese.
Then keep in mind that initial sugar content doesn’t mean maturity level: sugar can be one of the indicators of the maturity level, but if there is a lot of sugar it is not always ripe. It depends of many things (yield, farming methods, botrytis or not, etc).

Florian

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I like the petrol-like smell with rieslings. I also don’t see why so many are getting their panties in a bunch about it. Hardly anyone has a problem discussing a burgundy with barnyard smells (that’s shit, if it’s not apparent [snort.gif] ), sweaty socks, etc. We say that riesling smells like petrol or kerosene because it does. It doesn’t matter which came first… kerosene or riesling. We’re talking about an association. We describe wines with terms that we can all recognise and associate with, or at least I hope we try.

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You guessed correctly: I liked Zind-Humbrecht until they started picking later in the late 1980s. Many of wines since have seemed flabby to me since, with too little acidity.

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Trimethyldihydronaphthalene. Interesting. This is simply naphthalene with 3 methyl groups and a subtle bit of oxidation. I spend a decent amount of time doing work related to #2 Fuel Oil, Diesel and Kerosene spills. One of the more prevalent compounds (of environnmental concern) tends to be naphthalene. Various related naphthalene compounds are also present: methyl-naphthalenes among others. There’re also considerable amounts of trimethylbenzenes. Petroleum is not a good comparison for the aroma? Seems hard to do better IMHO.

RT

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RT,
Thanks for that little piece.
As this is not really a new topic, my take on it was primarily related to, what I think is the most important point in Florian’s post, which is the statement regarding Michel’s new venture in Alsace and the need for publicity to help the marketing along.