Premier Cru Master Complaint Thread (MERGED)

[Bill_Boykin]

@Rick Gregory

“Rick, I never accused PC of fraudulent behaviour…the above two facts are quite scary, and somewhat suspicious behaviour”

Uh huh. No, you never directly accused them. You just implied it strongly with an inflammatory picture that had no context when you posted it and indirectly with the above verbiage. Yeah, you dodge the ‘direct’ accusation but indirectly? Yeah, you do accuse them of something shady.

Oh and… you’re not the only person I was talking about.

"Oh no she didn't!"

[Eric_LeVine]

BTW, I purchased 2003 Pegau Domaine du Capo back in 9/2004. I recall that PC offer created some hubbub at the time, as the wine wasn’t yet bottled and Laurence wasn’t even sure if she would make a Capo at that point. Still, it seemed worth a shot on pure speculation, and they did ultimately deliver.

So is that the incredibly rare exception (selling a wine before it is even clear if it will exist so NO way that a supplier could be lined up)?

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

@Rick Gregory

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

@Rick Gregory

[…
But face it, the honest answer from any of US is “we don’t know.” …

Exactly. and this is why, imo, any reasonable person reading the answers in this thread understands there’s an implied “in my opinion” or “I think” directly before or after each answer herein given. Of course, not everyone is reasonable.

…

My point was simply that, aside from the couple of generic reasons I gave, NO ONE KNOWS. Instead of hitting Reply and pretending they do, people should have just skipped on. The OP isn’t answerable except as a generic answer to a question like 'Why would it take more than a few months to get wine from Europe here especially when others get it here faster?"

I’ve imported small wuantities of wine via channels and one thing that people don’t really get unless they’ve done that is that no one ships partial containers. For a large importer, this isn’t an issue. For a smaller one that’s assembling quantities over time you’ll aggregate the wine in the EU and then ship full containers to save money. And THEN keep in mind that you don’t want PC to ship your wine in, say, the summer. That means that April is likely the close of shipping season until October. If they miss the APril window that tacks on 6 months to the delivery time right there… unless all of you who care so much about your wine want it to cross the Atlantic and the continental US during summer.

I don’t really disagree with anything you say here, Rick.

Fact: PC takes a lot longer than many other retailers to deliver on its futures.

Why is that??? AFAIK, PC has never given a straightforward answer to this question. IMO, those who’ve given their money to PC deserve an answer to this fair question. Why hasn’t PC given such an answer? That so many of PC’s very own customers are left wanting for this answer strikes me as very suspicious.


Was my post inflammatory? Absolutely. And, you know what — replies, such as Neal’s, to such posts actually help shed light on the issue(s)/problem(s) at hand – namely, PC’s unreasonably long delivery times and failure to communicate the reasons therefore. So, in light of that, to everybody who so-responded to my inflammatory post, . I harbor no ill-will towards anyone who expressed such an opinion of my post.

[Andrew_L]

@Rick Gregory

“Rick, I never accused PC of fraudulent behaviour…the above two facts are quite scary, and somewhat suspicious behaviour”

Uh huh. No, you never directly accused them. You just implied it strongly with an inflammatory picture that had no context when you posted it and indirectly with the above verbiage. Yeah, you dodge the ‘direct’ accusation but indirectly? Yeah, you do accuse them of something shady.

Oh and… you’re not the only person I was talking about.

Am I not allowed to joke on the internet anymore? I’m sure my posting a photo of Madoff for 3 hours without qualification has irreparably damaged Premier Cru’s reputation. I’m looking for the eye rolling smiley here, but I can’t find it.

As for my statement – Are you going pretend that failing to deliver on pre-arrivals after 5 years is not suspicious, especially given that other retailers have delivered these products years ago?

[Lewis_Dawson]

@Eric LeVine

BTW, I purchased 2003 Pegau Domaine du Capo back in 9/2004. I recall that PC offer created some hubbub at the time, as the wine wasn’t yet bottled and Laurence wasn’t even sure if she would make a Capo at that point. Still, it seemed worth a shot on pure speculation, and they did ultimately deliver.

So is that the incredibly rare exception (selling a wine before it is even clear if it will exist so NO way that a supplier could be lined up)?

Eric, I don’t know the details of that wine, but I do believe, after many conversations with folks at PC over many years time, that PC sells wine only after they have bought it. So on that one wine, who is to say Laurence had not decided? Who is to say she had not confirmed an order with a broker in Switzerland or Belgium or somewhere else? Who is to say she had not confirmed the order, but maybe later reconsidered whether to bottle that separate cuvee?

It would be possible, but IMO really stupid, for John Fox to sit in his office and say… “Hey guys, let’s dream up 2003 Capo for $xx per bottle, that is about what that wine might sell for, go get 'em guys.”

There are instamces where PC’s suppliers fail to come through, just as there are with every other direct importer and also with 3-tier channels. When that happens, PC works very hard to find the wine or otherwise satisfy the customer, in my experience.

Considering the amount of really hard-to-find wines that PC sells, I think their proportion of supply disruptions are not unreasonable, IMO.

[Eric_LeVine]

Lewis, at the time it created a hubbub on the Parker board, becasue it was confirmed via the biggest importer in the US, who had just discussed this with Laurence, that she was undecided. Maybe she was lying? Maybe her Dad had decided and she didn’t realize? Who knows. And the wine is resting comfortably in my cellar, but I really recall this very clearly as I had also visited Pegau a few months earlier and asked Laurence the exact same question at the time (and she demurred).

@Lewis Dawson

@Eric LeVine

BTW, I purchased 2003 Pegau Domaine du Capo back in 9/2004. I recall that PC offer created some hubbub at the time, as the wine wasn’t yet bottled and Laurence wasn’t even sure if she would make a Capo at that point. Still, it seemed worth a shot on pure speculation, and they did ultimately deliver.

So is that the incredibly rare exception (selling a wine before it is even clear if it will exist so NO way that a supplier could be lined up)?

Eric, I don’t know the details of that wine, but I do believe, after many conversations with folks at PC over many years time, that PC sells wine only after they have bought it. So on that one wine, who is to say Laurence had not decided? Who is to say she had not confirmed an order with a broker in Switzerland or Belgium or somewhere else? Who is to say she had not confirmed the order, but maybe later reconsidered whether to bottle that separate cuvee?

It would be possible, but IMO really stupid, for John Fox to sit in his office and say… “Hey guys, let’s dream up 2003 Capo for $xx per bottle, that is about what that wine might sell for, go get 'em guys.”

There are instamces where PC’s suppliers fail to come through, just as there are with every other direct importer and also with 3-tier channels. When that happens, PC works very hard to find the wine or otherwise satisfy the customer, in my experience.

Considering the amount of really hard-to-find wines that PC sells, I think their proportion of supply disruptions are not unreasonable, IMO.

[Markus_S]

“…curiouser and curiouser…” said Alice.

[Chris_Blum]

Again, Sorry that this is such a contentious issue. I really was curious about how their methodology differs from say K&L.

[M_A_T_T_H_A_R_T_L_E_Y]

@Carl Steefel

@Chris Blum

Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 moths to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?

They are the importer. They assemble wines as far as I know in their Beaune warehouse from deliveries across Europe. On the gray market, normally, but perhaps not exclusively? Then they pack it up and ship it. The slow cases seem to be where the gray market guys do not ship it, e.g., I am still waiting for 2004 Clerico Barolo. I don’t think that they have these bottles in their Beaune warehouse, otherwise they would ship it.

Uh huh…

[Bill_Boykin]

@M A T T H A R T L E Y

@Carl Steefel

@Chris Blum

Weve all come to accept it as an amusing little minor frustration with a super reliable store.

My question is simply why? Why do they take 6 moths to a year longer than every other store? What is different about their importer or their purcashing schedule?

They are the importer. They assemble wines as far as I know in their Beaune warehouse from deliveries across Europe. On the gray market, normally, but perhaps not exclusively? Then they pack it up and ship it. The slow cases seem to be where the gray market guys do not ship it, e.g., I am still waiting for 2004 Clerico Barolo. I don’t think that they have these bottles in their Beaune warehouse, otherwise they would ship it.

Uh huh…

[Pat_Martin]

Anyone notice in PC’s 2009 Bordeaux email today? “Many arriving soon!”, right there in the email subject line. Maybe they’re reading this thread.

If true, this would be very timely Bordeaux futures delivery for PC, from 2 to 3 years earlier than most of my 2005 PC Bordeaux futures deliveries.

[Dan_Rosenheck]

I thought the PC business model was to make money on the float, like an insurance company? If they take 4 years to deliver your wine and can get, say, a 6% return on investments, then they can charge 20% less than the competition and still come out ahead. And if you’re buying wine for the purposes of cellaring anyway, then it’s pretty much a win-win, since you save the cost of offsite storage.

[Nick_Ryan]

@Dan Rosenheck

I thought the PC business model was to make money on the float, like an insurance company? If they take 4 years to deliver your wine and can get, say, a 6% return on investments, then they can charge 20% less than the competition and still come out ahead. And if you’re buying wine for the purposes of cellaring anyway, then it’s pretty much a win-win, since you save the cost of offsite storage.

Because PC provides ironclad documentation that your wine was stored at exactly 55 degrees 80% humidity for the four years after release it spent ping-ponging across Europe while you saved on storage costs. A minor deal for stuff you’re going to drink in 5 years, an exponentially bigger deal for 30-year crus.

[Steven_Miller]

Just order stuff you know you don’t want to touch anytime soon and consider it free storage.

[Chris_Seiber]

@Nick Ryan

@Dan Rosenheck

I thought the PC business model was to make money on the float, like an insurance company? If they take 4 years to deliver your wine and can get, say, a 6% return on investments, then they can charge 20% less than the competition and still come out ahead. And if you’re buying wine for the purposes of cellaring anyway, then it’s pretty much a win-win, since you save the cost of offsite storage.

Because PC provides ironclad documentation that your wine was stored at exactly 55 degrees 80% humidity for the four years after release it spent ping-ponging across Europe while you saved on storage costs. A minor deal for stuff you’re going to drink in 5 years, an exponentially bigger deal for 30-year crus.

Not arguing or disagreeing, but in what sense do they (or even could they) provide ironclad documentation of the storage conditions? Or are you being sarcastic and it just went over my head?

I’ve bought a few prearrivals in the fairly distant past from PC and I don’t remember there being any documentation of any sort about what happened to my wines before they were delivered to me.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Markus S

@Howard Cooper

… Even when CW got into trouble with not being able to deliver on 1990 Bordeaux, it was not because they were gambling. It was because their source went bankrupt.

Actually, it was a container ship that split in half at sea which CW had the unfortunate luck of having the majority of their Bordeaux on it in containers that sank to the bottom of the sea. But they made good on every order.

No, they didn’t. We ordered a case of Montrose and only got 2 bottles.

[Nick_Ryan]

@Chris Seiber

@Nick Ryan

@Dan Rosenheck

I thought the PC business model was to make money on the float, like an insurance company? If they take 4 years to deliver your wine and can get, say, a 6% return on investments, then they can charge 20% less than the competition and still come out ahead. And if you’re buying wine for the purposes of cellaring anyway, then it’s pretty much a win-win, since you save the cost of offsite storage.

Because PC provides ironclad documentation that your wine was stored at exactly 55 degrees 80% humidity for the four years after release it spent ping-ponging across Europe while you saved on storage costs. A minor deal for stuff you’re going to drink in 5 years, an exponentially bigger deal for 30-year crus.

Not arguing or disagreeing, but in what sense do they (or even could they) provide ironclad documentation of the storage conditions? Or are you being sarcastic and it just went over my head?

I’ve bought a few prearrivals in the fairly distant past from PC and I don’t remember there being any documentation of any sort about what happened to my wines before they were delivered to me.

[Chris_Seiber]

Ah, I suspected as much, but couldn’t quite zero in on it.

[Lewis_Dawson]

Well, there is the mathmatics of the deal…

A: Selling short.
B: In a rising market.
C: Selling at lower prices than essentially all others.
D: In business for over 25 years.

It doesn’t add up. Those who believe PC’s business model is short sales, please tell me how it adds up.

[Andrew_L]

@Lewis Dawson

Well, there is the mathmatics of the deal…

A: Selling short.
B: In a rising market.
C: Selling at lower prices than essentially all others.
D: In business for over 25 years.

It doesn’t add up. Those who believe PC’s business model is short sales, please tell me how it adds up.

Once again, I will preface my post with the fact that I have absolutely no idea of their financial situation or how they operate internally. The following is hypothetical:

When Premier Cru finds the wines that they offered, what are they paying for them? What if it is more than the original sale offer? They fill some orders so their customers keep the faith and are temporarily happy, then subsequently release their next round of rock bottom offers, which are used to fund more purchases to fulfil old orders. This would explain the seemingly ever growing list of people waiting for pre-arrivals, and the fact that they exceed any other retailer by 50% in undelivered purchased on cellartracker (second is Garagiste).

Of course, alternatively, they are sitting on a giant pile of cash and inventory, just waiting to fill those outstanding orders.