Prieure-Roch and Bernstein

[William_Kelley]

Bernstein rents and farms the land so he’s paying a premium regardless of how much fruit he yields. We recently had dinner with him and his wines showed very well. Certainly very high quality though the pricing is still out of whack especially for a newer producer without a track record. But taking price out of the equation, he’s making some very nice wines and the oak in his more recent releases is more restrained.

He certainly doesn’t rent and farm all the vineyards he sources fruit from, as I know one of his suppliers, from whom his team simply collect the fruit at harvest time. Perhaps it’s different for his other cuvées of course…

[jleedionne]

It is kind of a night and day question here as there really are not that many similarities.

Henri-Frédéric Roch was a substantial owner in one of the greatest domaines in Burgundy.
He owned multiple monopoles.
He was integral in DRC’s, and you could say the entire region’s, movement towards biodynamic principles.
And, if nothing else, his “bistro” in Nuits is a gem.

[CFu]

If you like the flavor oak you’ll love Bernstein. Got blinded on 2013 and 2014 grand crus from him on back to back dinners and I didn’t think it was possible for anything that oaky to be from burgundy

[alan_weinberg]

It is kind of a night and day question here as there really are not that many similarities.

two similarities: neither is reviewed or touted much, both significantly overpriced.

[Thomas_De_Waen]

It is kind of a night and day question here as there really are not that many similarities.

two similarities: neither is reviewed or touted much, both significantly overpriced.

What does “overpriced” mean in Burgundy? More than you want to pay? Or higher priced on release than on secondary market?

If the former, then that’s a matter of taste (but plenty of amateurs swear by Prieure-Roch). If the latter then Bernstein is objectively expensive (I sold some at auction as realised it was not my style, and got very little money out of it), and P-R is decent value (always higher priced at auction than on release. See for example this sale from last week: Vins rares et prestigieux • Besch Cannes Auction •).

Full disclosure: I import the PR wines into Belgium, and drink them whenever I can.

[Tom_Reddick]

I received an Olivier Bernstein wine in a trade a few years ago - not anything of significant value on my part, so I was happy to try something new. It was…not my style. Very oaky and extracted without enough acidity for me. No doubt some people like that style. I have never taken note of Bernstein prices, and didn’t realize they were high. I can’t explain that.

I’ve never liked Prieuré Roch.

I think this is a big part of it- the interest in burgundy is now broad enough that there is a good sized crowd who loved 2005 red burgundies and think they should always be that extracted. Add in too much oak, so much the better.

With Roche, the Leroy connection makes an impact. Now that her top wines are selling for upper four to mid five figures a bottle, any connection at all to the Leroy name is going to elevate pricing to some degree.

[patrick_c_albright]

It is kind of a night and day question here as there really are not that many similarities.

two similarities: neither is reviewed or touted much, both significantly overpriced.

Prieuré-Roch obviously does not need reviews to sell wine.

Furthermore, I think that the Domaine has had a sizable influence on quite a few young and upcoming vignerons. And people such as Philippe Pacalet.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but I think you are annoyed by the cost and not really looking at the big picture.

(And neither here nor there, I can drink P-R’s lower end bottlings for €60–70– on the table at quite a few restaurants in France - that is not expensive.)

[m_ristev]

pacalet was actually the original wine maker at prieure roch in the 90s

[Kris_Patten]

It is kind of a night and day question here as there really are not that many similarities.

two similarities: neither is reviewed or touted much, both significantly overpriced.

I can’t find PR reviews, but Tanzer reviews Bernstein and all his wines 2009 - 2016 garner 93-98 points from Tanzer, who is not an oak averse reviewer. 2007 and 2008 get a bit lower. Those are upper echelon scores for Burgundy in Vinous.

Neal and Antonio reviewed 2010 - 2014 in Wine Advocate, Neal lived in 90 - 93 range, Antonio had 2010 and capped at 96.

[alan_weinberg]

It is kind of a night and day question here as there really are not that many similarities.

two similarities: neither is reviewed or touted much, both significantly overpriced.

Prieuré-Roch obviously does not need reviews to sell wine.

Furthermore, I think that the Domaine has had a sizable influence on quite a few young and upcoming vignerons. And people such as Philippe Pacalet.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but I think you are annoyed by the cost and not really looking at the big picture.

(And neither here nor there, I can drink P-R’s lower end bottlings for €60–70– on the table at quite a few restaurants in France - that is not expensive.)

I’m not annoyed at the cost any more than I’m annoyed at other burgundy pricing! I just see them for sale at prices beyond what I pay for other wines and was wondering—since I have never seen them touted on this board or by Burg buddies. I have no axe to grind.

[Kris_Patten]

two similarities: neither is reviewed or touted much, both significantly overpriced.

Prieuré-Roch obviously does not need reviews to sell wine.

Furthermore, I think that the Domaine has had a sizable influence on quite a few young and upcoming vignerons. And people such as Philippe Pacalet.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but I think you are annoyed by the cost and not really looking at the big picture.

(And neither here nor there, I can drink P-R’s lower end bottlings for €60–70– on the table at quite a few restaurants in France - that is not expensive.)

I’m not annoyed at the cost any more than I’m annoyed at other burgundy pricing! I just see them for sale at prices beyond what I pay for other wines and was wondering—since I have never seen them touted on this board or by Burg buddies. I have no axe to grind.

The asking price is stratospheric…same way I feel about Ente and his whites.

[Kent_Comley]

I bought a few P-R a number of years ago and they did not wow me at all. As I recall they were premier cru CdN wines, and were a bit tough and charmless. I moved on. No regrets.

[William_Kelley]

I can’t find PR reviews, but Tanzer reviews Bernstein and all his wines 2009 - 2016 garner 93-98 points from Tanzer, who is not an oak averse reviewer. 2007 and 2008 get a bit lower. Those are upper echelon scores for Burgundy in Vinous.

Neal and Antonio reviewed 2010 - 2014 in Wine Advocate, Neal lived in 90 - 93 range, Antonio had 2010 and capped at 96.

See above, PR will not receive journalists. I even asked to go just for personal interest, without publishing anything, simply to be better informed, but got no reply. In fact, for the time being, it is the only domaine that I can’t visit.

[g.colangelo]

I tried Bernstein at the village level several years ago and was not impressed - yes, well made, polished but also oaky - and in view of the price lost interest completely.
Last November at a Burgundy 2017 tasting I had a chance to try again a few wines and was very much impressed by the balance, freshness and energy of the wines (they were Champeaux, Cazetiers and Clos Vougeot). They stood out even at the end of a long tasting which featured some of the best in the region (Ponsot Clos de la Roche, Trapet Chambertin, Vogue Bonnes Mares and Musigny, Clos de Lambrays, to name just a few). Prices still make them out of reach, but I was very positively surprised.

[Robert_Sand]

Just FWIW:
I just saw in the catalogue for an auction in Munich
Prieure Roch 2015 1 x 0,75l
Vosne Romanee Le Clos Goillotte
estimate: EUR 1150 - 1640

They state that it is the site below La Tâche, but that´s not really true, the Clos Eugenie (former Clos Frantin) is in between, and Goillotte is really far down the hill in the middle of the town.

I have no idea what they are thinking and if anybody will bite - but things are going really crazy (after the passing of Frederic Roch)

[andy_liu_jr]

Just FWIW:
I just saw in the catalogue for an auction in Munich
Prieure Roch 2015 1 x 0,75l
Vosne Romanee Le Clos Goillotte
estimate: EUR 1150 - 1640

They state that it is the site below La Tâche, but that´s not really true, the Clos Eugenie (former Clos Frantin) is in between, and Goillotte is really far down the hill in the middle of the town.

I have no idea what they are thinking and if anybody will bite - but things are going really crazy (after the passing of Frederic Roch)

Goillote is really good though…