Pungo--a Coravin alternative

[Arif_F]

Seems like the hole that the Pungo makes is much bigger compared to the Coravin hole. No conclusion, just observation.

[M_Hudson]

I am not trying to rain on the parade, but this product faces a great deal of challenges in ever really coming to market in a meaningful way.

Sales, funding, developing a manufacturing process, (supply line) against an entrenched, well funded competitor who is already improving their product is going to be an uphill battle.

[alan_weinberg]

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@M Hudson

I am not trying to rain on the parade, but this product faces a great deal of challenges in ever really coming to market in a meaningful way.

Sales, funding, developing a manufacturing process, (supply line) against an entrenched, well funded competitor who is already improving their product is going to be an uphill battle.

i think Pungo is perfect for restaurants which will buy several, tap a bottle, leave it in, and quickly pour perfectly preserved wine by the glass more cheaply than Coravin.

It is also great for drinking a bottle over several days. I think it has a solid place, just a little different from the Coravin.

There is always room for competition and a better product.

[mweinberg]

@M Hudson

I am not trying to rain on the parade, but this product faces a great deal of challenges in ever really coming to market in a meaningful way.

Sales, funding, developing a manufacturing process, (supply line) against an entrenched, well funded competitor who is already improving their product is going to be an uphill battle.

Mark, the line is up and running:

Log into Facebook

Our company has no debts, no liens, all of the equipment is paid for. We have fixtures, jigs, and CNC code for every process. And parts are now coming off the line. We’re smaller and more nimble, and because we manufacture ourselves, we can make improvements quickly. Case in point: comments, mostly by berserkers, have convinced us to re-engineer the sealing pins - make them more high-end (out of stainless) and change the head design. That took a day, and now they are ready to roll off the lathe.

I used to work for a venture-funded start up that blew through $7M in cash in less than a year. The last call the company made was to the auctioneers. A lot of start ups create massive overhead that can’t be sustained. We prefer to grow organically with small overhead, and we don’t feel that Coravin has to fail for us to succeed.

They’re actually completely different devices, the only thing in common is that both devices use a needle, but even the needles are completely different. Our device is meant to be left on the bottle and used daily, which is how most of our customers use it. Some customers asked for the ability to do more than one bottle at a time with one unit, which is why we introduced the sealing pins. Some customer just want a second Pungo to do multiples, because they’re just super easy to use. Can it be used to draw a small volume out of a bottle in a cellar, and then return the bottle for an extended period? Sure. we think it can do that very well, but in reality, it’s going to be independent scientific testing that demonstrates which is better at this, Coravin or Pungo.

One thing we didn’t want to do was execute the great American business plan of coming up with a prototype and having it made in China. No disrespect to China; I do know that they make some stuff very well. It’s just that the odds of a small company pulling this off are low. I give you this example from another Kickstarter project, “Pebble”. Read some of the comments:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android/comments

“All the interest/excitement I had when I first came across it simply vanished the moment I got the product. I’m afraid it’s mainly to do with the product itself. I was pretty unsatisfied with the build of the watch, so everything it can do became secondary once you saw that it all happened in what looked like - well, a Chinese-made toy.”

[Mark_Y]

@mweinberg

, a Chinese-made toy."

aka… most Apple products…

[Mark_Y]

I think bottom line the problem is it’s a toy for $300 and that’s just too expensive for most people…
maybe not restaurants, but individual consumers…

It does look pretty neat… will see if this puppy gets cheaper on Berserker day?

[DougS]

@mweinberg

It does seem to me that these people are just directly ripping off the Coravin. I’m not surprised at the lack of backers.

Actually, we’ve been around for a while. Their latest patent references ours. Part of the delay for us was we wanted the manufacturing done in US, which we now do in house. We have customers in Europe and Japan, who prefer to not buy stuff made in China, especially if it’s being sold at a premium price. Our unit is all-metal construction (including the internal mechanism); there’s no chrome plastic or painted plastic.

A lot of people are confused by Kickstarter - is it investing, is it backing? For us, it’s just way to do pre-orders. By far, most of the orders we are getting are outside of Kickstarter.

Thanks for the clarification. This type of device doesn’t interest me anyway, but I do wish you luck.

[A_Ballin]

@scott c l a f f e e

1. better wine flow
2. can use it with one hand
3. less/no reliance on the resilience of the cork (I see others already responded about your question - oxygen does not enter when you pull out the needle or pin, and the pin (however inelegant in its ‘golf tee’ form) provides a more confidence-inspiring seal than hoping the Coravin holes closes up completely)
4. argon cartridges last longer (because less is used) and are cheaper

There might be more comparisons to be made, but those are just off the top of my head. It also seems “sturdier” - I’m waiting for our cleaning ladies to knock the Coravin off my kitchen counter and break the needle off any day now.

First two and last are not really issues for me.

The third issue you raise, couldn’t you achieve exactly the same result with Coravin by simply inserting a needle (or similar) with the with just a slightly larger diameter than the needle on the Coravin into the hole that it made?

[Rick.T]

For those worried that the cork doesn’t seal on the Coravin, just stick a golf tee in the end like the Pungo. I doubt there is room for a piece of wood in the cork since the needle leaves such a small hole but I’m sure it can be done. Other than the golf tee there is really nothing different between the two. The pours I get with the Coravin are fine but the argon cartridges are more expensive. Pungo says the argon cartridges are not proprietary but they control the sale of them…ok.

I do hope the Pungo gives the Coravin competition; with that, comes more innovation for all and hopefully one day an adapter to utilize standard argon cartridges.

[ky1em1ttskus]

@Rick.T

Pungo says the argon cartridges are not proprietary but they control the sale of them…ok.

I caught that, too.

[mweinberg]

@kylemittskus

@Rick.T

Pungo says the argon cartridges are not proprietary but they control the sale of them…ok.

I caught that, too.

Seriously? Do you know how much it would cost to have tooling made to produce proprietary cartridges?

We’re going to be selling cartridges the same way PEK and Coravin sell cartridges under their own brands, but there won’t be anything proprietary about them. And as stated above, the cartridges will be shipped exactly as they come in from the supplier with no adapters glued on.

[Kevin_M_L]

@mweinberg

@kylemittskus

@Rick.T

Pungo says the argon cartridges are not proprietary but they control the sale of them…ok.

I caught that, too.

Seriously? Do you know how much it would cost to have tooling made to produce proprietary cartridges?

We’re going to be selling cartridges the same way PEK and Coravin sell cartridges under their own brands, but there won’t be anything proprietary about them. And as stated above, the cartridges will be shipped exactly as they come in from the supplier with no adapters glued on.

We’re not trying to pile on here. We’re just trying to get clarity on a serious question that affects our interest in the product. Personally, I appreciate that the cartridges are standard, because I would like to know that there is at least a possibility of sourcing them through a secondary supplier. Once a market develops for nearly any product that requires replacement parts, secondary/generic parts are usually produced to sell side by side with the branded part. This is true of everything from automobiles to appliances to remote control battery packs. I think it’s reasonable for me as a consumer to want the same for a wine preservation device, both to drive down costs through competition and to ensure future utility; and I think it’s reasonable for you to prefer branded sales as a source of ongoing revenue.

By the way, I would suggest updating the Kickstarter page. The reason I raised this question in the first place is because the description there reads: “The Pungo uses a proprietary 21-ml argon cartridge. The Pungo’s unique engineering allows a glass to be poured quickly with only a few PSI of argon pressure.”

All this said, I remain intrigued and might be a future buyer.

[David_White]

Chiming in here with my thoughts –

Together with Scott Claffee and Justin Connor, I met with Morgan and his partner Burt on Saturday. I’ve seen the Coravin used a number of times (and always been impressed) but was more impressed with the Pungo.

To echo Scott, the fact that you can use it with one hand makes it a much more elegant (and easy) delivery system.

What impressed me the most, though, was the engineering with regards to the argon gas flow. There are details on the kickstarter page (and Morgan might be able to clarify), but with the Pungo, gas pressure is never introduced into a sealed bottle.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but with the Coravin, isn’t it (theoretically possible) to overfill the bottle with Argon? Doesn’t that create some serious risk, since wine bottles aren’t designed to handle pressure?

[Michael_Lewis]

But Champagne bottles are designed to handle pressure, and that’s pretty much all you and Claffee drink, so I wouldn’t worry too much.

[David_White]

@Michael Lewis

But Champagne bottles are designed to handle pressure, and that’s pretty much all you and Claffee drink, so I wouldn’t worry too much.

True.

[Paul_H_Galli]

Morgan,

I’m interested in your product.

Questions:

1. Have you tested the durability of the “slippery” coating on the needle?
   My Screwpull’s teflon coating wears off rather quickly.

2. I have a lot of bottles with heavy sediment.
   With your device in place, will the system work if the bottle is parallel to the pouring surface?
   Will it work if the bottle is SLIGHTLY tipped up?

TTT

[mweinberg]

@Kevin M L

By the way, I would suggest updating the Kickstarter page. The reason I raised this question in the first place is because the description there reads: “The Pungo uses a proprietary 21-ml argon cartridge. The Pungo’s unique engineering allows a glass to be poured quickly with only a few PSI of argon pressure.”

OK, I think I see where the disconnect is. The word “proprietary” on the Kickstarter page was to convey that we had available Pungo-branded cartridges that would assure the user a trouble-free experience. Kevin, thanks for pointing that out because it seems “proprietary” is sending the wrong message. They are definitely off-the-shelf units. We’ll take “proprietary” out.

In fact, if you look at the pictures on the KS page, you’ll see that the ends of the cartridges are threaded. Although they are threaded, we don’t use the threads. The cartridge just drops in the cartridge cover (the cylindrical part jutting out front the side at an angle), and that cartridge cover is then screwed to the housing. This pierces the argon cartridge. It’s very fast and effortless, and results in no wastage of argon upon piercing.

We sourced the threaded units because the manufacturer produces this model at higher quantities than the straight-neck version, allowing us to sell cartridges at a lower price. If we were going to use a proprietary cartridge, we certainly wouldn’t have had the end threaded.

Of course, with that said, we think we will be your best cartridge source:

1. You could be sure they weren’t counterfeit and had the purest argon.
2. They will be at a price point where it’s doubtful you could get them cheaper anywhere else.
3. We will have of one-stop shopping on our site, which will include one-button ordering. We could also implement automatic recurring ordering if desired.

Again, sorry for the confusion, hope this clears up the issue.

[Paul_H_Galli]

@Paul H Galli

Morgan,

I’m interested in your product.

Questions:

1. Have you tested the durability of the “slippery” coating on the needle?
   My Screwpull’s teflon coating wears off rather quickly.

2. I have a lot of bottles with heavy sediment.
   With your device in place, will the system work if the bottle is parallel to the pouring surface?
   Will it work if the bottle is SLIGHTLY tipped up?

3. Will you have quantity discounts for your Argon Capsules?

TTT

[mweinberg]

1. Have you tested the durability of the “slippery” coating on the needle?
   My Screwpull’s teflon coating wears off rather quickly.

We have units in service from 2009, and the needle coating still seems to be holding up. The new coating is actually better than the original, and they are now double coated. This is the one process that we outsource because it’s so specialized. We recommend removing the foil, so the needle only touches cork.

2. I have a lot of bottles with heavy sediment.
   With your device in place, will the system work if the bottle is parallel to the pouring surface?
   Will it work if the bottle is SLIGHTLY tipped up?

As long as wine is covering the wine port in the needle, wine can flow. When the bottle is horizontal, the wine port faces down and the argon port faces up, so you could dispense a decent volume of wine like this. At some point, you will have to tilt the bottle downward, but the flow is vary controllable, so you should be able to pour without agitating the sediment.

3. Will you have quantity discounts for your Argon Capsules?

A ten pack will go for $39.99. We will have price breaks for higher quantities.


Thanks for looking!

[Eric_Lundblad]

@mweinberg

3. Will you have quantity discounts for your Argon Capsules?

A ten pack will go for $39.99. We will have price breaks for higher quantities.


Thanks for looking!

Thanks for the info…how many bottles will a single argon capsule handle? Any thoughts on what you;re going to price the unit for? Thanks!