This, plus I would add provenance of the wines. If someone buys from my winery, the wines go from our storage(50-55F), into the shipping process, which is usually monitored closely(our shipper tried to hit too narrow a window last fall, first weather issue in over a decade of shipping with them), and we replace the wines if there’s an issue.
If a customer buys from a place in Oregon like Vinopolis, provenance is similar-we deliver directly to them, they have a temperature controlled shop, and shipping is similar. But once you get outside Portland, provenance gets trickier. We distributed to Oklahoma briefly, and the distribution pathway there was less than ideal.
As David said, more typically the issues are in the distribution leg rather than the retail space. But certainty does matter, especially with high value wines, and it’s hard to beat direct for that.
Some make more sense than others. One that I like a lot is Dragonette, which is more of a club than a list, because there’s a minimum you’re required to purchase. However, I like it because: my commitment is low, I can completely customize my order, I get a discount vs. if I wasn’t a member, I get access to cuvees I can’t find elsewhere (this is all I buy from the winery, since their lower-end cuvees are more affordable at retail), and I get free tasting whenever I visit (it’s not too far from me and I really enjoy their tastings).
Other than California, almost every state is three tier. Even in CA, most wineries use a distributor. Think sales weasels and mafia culture. In some states, if you aren’t happy with your distributor, you need your distributor’s permission to switch to a competitor of theirs. They can keep you in their book and not sell your wines. You can work with your distributor on strategy, get all sorts of promises and commitments out of them, and they can ignore all of that and do what they want. All you have is weak after-the-fact leverage, which they might not give a rat’s ass about. Ooh! Tiny winery wants to take their ball and go home…and not sell their wine. (It’s not uncommon, for example, to see a thread where a distributor dumped some wine counter to strategy and without the knowledge of the winery. List customers are pissed off seeing wines selling for much less than they paid. Those were good wineries.)
You told me the Oklahoma connection at our tasting last fall but don’t hold that against us Oklahomans who love your wine and wish we could go to our favorite bottle shop and replenish when you’re between shipping seasons.
I like OK as a state, and I really enjoyed visiting! There’s a great energy regarding food and wine there. I would also say our distributor was solid, and our contact was dedicated and forthright. But temperature controlled storage was hit or miss and delivery was not managed for heat or cold.
This is a subject that I have personally struggled with and talked with winemakers about.
Here in Oklahoma we’ve only been able to legally ship wine direct for the last eighteen months. Some wineries would skirt the rules with third party shippers but, many wineries wouldn’t mess with it. When our laws changed to allow wine in grocery stores it also changed our DTC rules and essential collapsed a tier in the distribution system by allowed franchising at the producer level.
All that to say the couple distributors that bring in the smaller, private wineries have struggled as they have now been shut out of grocery stores and the larger restaurants. For that reason I try and support them by buying at retail. Those are the folks that got me hooked on good wine at their local tastings (sharing wine I couldn’t afford at the time or introducing me to stuff I would’ve never tried) and dinners (introducing me to winemakers) and I want to repay that with business.
But, I still a lot from mailing lists. Primarily what I can’t get locally or if the price is cheaper.
Some of that was law. The new laws allow for refrigerated transport and storage. Anytime you want to visit let me know! We host wine dinners a few times year and would love to feature you at one!
I’d be curious here if anyone will admit to buying off a “list” (quotes because to me a list is allocation-only stuff) from a winery which has good distribution. For example I get mailers from Ken Wright, Mayacamas, and a few others each year (not to pick on them; they’re far from alone). I think KW offers futures, which if you love the wine I suppose can make sense, but I think you have to buy enormous quantities (like 6 bottles min per wine selected), and even then it’s not a stunning discount. But back to the point - I can get these anytime I want. Right now Mayacamas is offering the Chard for $50, but a quick review of W-S indicates I can get this locally for $43. And these are still pretty small production wineries! This would be “doubly true” if you wanted say Ferrari-Carano or Louis Martini.
The only one which is close for me is Bedrock, which lately has become pretty widely available at retail. However the list still represents a pretty good discount to what it goes for on the shelves, especially the higher end stuff, and there’s a ton of small production stuff they offer to the list that I’ll never find at retail. Add in, as others have noted, that I’d much rather support a winery via the list if possible, and it becomes a safe buy.
I admit I don’t fully understand the wanting to support a winery more by buying direct versus retail. It’s all supporting the winery, no matter how it’s purchased. I imagine costs are quite a bit lower for them to sell wholesale anyway, as it requires less manpower and hand selling. It is not cheap to run a DTC operation. Most wineries use more than one distribution channel and there may be legitimate reasons for buying one way or the other, but there is no high ground to buying direct.
Business models are all over the place. Margins are very low selling through distribution, so that sort of necessitates volume. Costs of DTC can be very high, but a list with a time window can make it very efficient. So, buying through a list or club membership gives the winery a good margin and represents repeat sales. Random orders coming in willy nilly will have more costs, but should still be better than retail.
I mean to be clear, if I can save $5 bucks at a retail outlet vs buying direct, I’ll take it. However selling via distributors, the winery typically gets 30-35% of the retail price, whereas they get 100% if I buy direct. Yeah it may be a bit more expensive for the winery to fulfill those orders vs using a distributor, but it ain’t 3X. I’m not talking about tasting rooms so there’s no hand selling involved.
Sure it is. I bought from several lists when I first started buying wines. In some cases, I’d have to buy mediocre wines to get to the good ones. Some “hostage” deals, which we know is an issue. And the pressure to continue buying off lists or be kicked off if not (latest Scarecrow offer a great example).
Since I’ve finally got off lists (primarily because I’ve moved to European wines) and went retail, my purchases are much smaller and much more diversified. I buy 2-3 bottles of something from a producer vs. 4, 6, or 12 bottles. No more mediocre wines. I buy when it’s convenient for me, not when there’s an allocation.
Surprised y’all challenged my post - probably hundreds of posts in agreement with me on this in WB.
This may be perception, but it is not reality for a small winery.
Selling wine 3 tier starts with half the revenue and almost no margin. To sell wholesale effectively comes at very high costs that are rarely sustainable- travel, meals & entertainment, samples, events. etc. One market visit can easily put you in the red in that region for the year.
Agree with the people here who said support the wineries you like. You may or may not save a few bucks, you may or may not find it in a local store. However, if there are future releases that are in short supply, you have a better chance of getting it as a loyal direct customer.
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