I don’t think of it as investment either but I don’t ignore the fact that my taste may change (and it continuously does) which might lead to me not really liking 500, 1000 or more bottles anymore, I really liked and bought with the sole intention to drink 10 or 20 years ago. Don’t tell me it’s irrelevant and you wouldn’t be happier if you can sell these wines without losses (or a profit) and buy more of the stuff you like more today (and did not bought enough 20 years ago). So knowing the market buy what you like with a few market rules in mind is the right thing to do. Especially when you have a long-term view on your cellar and your cellar is huge.
I didn’t say it was irrelevant to you or everyone. I was just saying it’s not a consideration for many of us.
I have around a thousand bottles and am unlikely to drink them all in my lifetime because I’m always buying new things to try. Still, I don’t give any thought to the market value of what I have.
Anyone who has several thousand bottles and thinks their tastes may change so dramatically that they may want to sell a large portion of their cellar at some point, probably ought to buy more tentatively and in smaller quantities. If you focus too much on resale value, you’ll be trapped in the game of buying trophy wines with 95+ points.
What are too many Magnums? I’ve bought around 200 Magnums in the past decade with the intention of having wines that can (hopefully will) reach higher highs 20/30 years down the road. But reading your statement enforces my ever-growing doubts if there are enough occasions to pop a Magnum. I’m missing some reference points here. What is your take on that?
I’ve rebalanced my cellar twice, selling to K&L each time. I believe that the proceeds were a wash against my cost basis, and this was for non-trophy American wine. What helped was taking their offer of store credit in lieu of cash, but I enjoy buying from them anyway, even if their pricing isn’t always the most competetive (which it hardly ever is).
We’re just not having (or going to) the geeky dinner parties we used to have. Changes in peoples lives have fractured the regular group. I have about 90 magnums, and maybe open two a year.
Got you. True, your solution to the problem of changing tastes (i.e. buying in smaller quantities and more tentatively) might also be a solution but it is the inferior solution for me and my cellar: Buying lower quantities means that you are financially protected too (at least somewhat) but you might be screwed in 25 years time as you don’t have enough wine of your beloved 25 year old Bordeaux which you loved 25 years ago and still love today (as the taste hasn’t changed) but you didn’t buy enough 25 years ago because you were afraid that your taste might change.
I prefer to buy enough of everything I like, focus on what I love but don’t ignore the market completely in my considerations (don’t confuse my “don’t ignore the marketability of a wine” with “taking the marketability as only, dominating criteria when buying wine”).
On another note: Not that I would just buy “trophy wines with 95+ points” but if I would have to choose a trap I’m trapped in, it would be this category. You make it sound like a bad thing.
There are plenty of wines which have been rated (by someone) at 95+ points that I would rather not have in my cellar. For me, buying what I know I enjoy is much more valuable than considering any given wine’s future market value.
True, 100% true.
Again true. What I tried to say above is that given that you buy large quantities it absolutely makes sense to include marketability aspects into the considerations. As said above I don’t say that you should buy or not buy because of the “market potential” of a wine but ignoring this marketability of a certain wine could be very frustrating and painful and unwise if we’re talking about 2.5k, 3k, 4k+ bottle collections. For me it often decides whether I buy 6 or 12 or 24 and magnums of a certain wine.
I always buy with the intent to drink, but my cellar has grown and grown, and my tastes have changed over the years. How surprising! Primarily for space concerns I’ve sold off a couple hundred bottles over the past few years. I made a slight gain (dumb luck, really) but I was surprised how easy it was. It helps that I live in San Francisco, but the auction market has really changed in the last five years. In the old days it seems that auctions were few and focused on absolute top regions/producers. But now with K&L, Winebid, etc. it’s possible to sell off a few cases at a time. Yes, it still has to be ‘fine’ wine, but selling off things that I just don’t think I’ll drink is just not a big deal. I don’t see how “I’ve never sold a bottle” is some kind of badge of honor.
But yes, I absolutely agree with “buy good stuff, buy what you like, don’t buy too much.” That last part is tricky though.
Andy, there is no arguing with your logic. However, wine buying is often driven by passion rather than logic. And even when guided by logic, it’s usually to satisfy the buyer’s needs in this life rather than with an eye to estate planning. Which admittedly was the point of the Reddit post. But who wants to think about their wine’s value when they’re dead? Kinda sucks the fun out of it.
The love and joy I associate with trying new wines is totally absent from the original post and much of this thread.
Yea the joy associated with the original post is the greedy pleasure of buying wine that you hope will appreciate in value one day. In other words, foreign to the WB way of thinking.
I assume you are not speaking for all the WBs here.There are a myriad of different forces driving us, although the pleasure of drinking good wine is universal. I certainly enjoy the chase, and there isn’t a single bottle in my cellar, that I wouldn’t part with at the right price.
This. I have a comfort threshold for everything. If the wine exceeds this threshold in value then I’ll sell. Some wines have what most people would consider to be unreasonable comfort points (it would take many, many multiples of the purchase price to pry any Clos Roche Blanche from my hands). I like all of the wine in my cellar or else it wouldn’t be there.
Mark - of course I’m not. Trying to be a bit tongue in cheek as well but clearly failed spectacularly. Like you I enjoy the chase. I don’t buy wine to make a profit but have certainly been pleased when bottles I have sold — due to changing taste - at a nice margin. But for wine I love, I don’t think I’d ever consider selling. Moore likely I’d just be pleased with the good fortune that allowed me to acquire the bottle in my own comfort zone.
Wait until you try old wines. They’re even better.
Agreed, I misspoke. I should have said newly purchased. Most of the wines I now buy are older, ready to drink, and have little potential price upside. I don’t like drinking any red wine within six years of vintage except as a data point. Twenty years old even for mid-range reds seems to be my new sweet spot. That would mean 2001 Cabernet (maybe still too young), 1999 and 2002 red Burgundy (maybe still too young), the nine 1993-1997 Williams Selyem pinots I am opening next week, Bordeaux somewhere between 1986 (LLC eg perfect now) and 1996 (LLC last month clearly too young), 1980’s Ridge, Rhys’s 2006’s, and I can’t afford Barolo that’s ready now (1990 maybe).