"Reductive" (non oxidative) Champagne

[Guillermo_M]

Stay away from Boizel Grand Vintage 2007. I couldn’t tell if it was the oak or oxidation that was coming through if you like a cleaner champagne. It wasn’t bad, but tasted like a loaf of almond bread.

There is little worse for me than marzipan notes in Champagne.

Do you like Ritter Sport biscuits? If you like dry rose’s maybe Scaccia d’avoli rose spumante brut rosé might be a good match for you.

Never been a fan of rosé of any sort. Sometimes I have some and think it isn’t so bad and I’m too tough on it, but I still never have an urge to drink it.

[Kirk.Grant]

There is little worse for me than marzipan notes in Champagne.

Do you like Ritter Sport biscuits? If you like dry rose’s maybe Scaccia d’avoli rose spumante brut rosé might be a good match for you.

Never been a fan of rosé of any sort. Sometimes I have some and think it isn’t so bad and I’m too tough on it, but I still never have an urge to drink it.

Guillermo, Have you ever had the Vilmart vintage Rose with a little age on it? That and a bottle of the Taittinger Comtes Rosé were the two bottles that really changed my mind on Rose Champagnes.

[Guillermo_M]

Do you like Ritter Sport biscuits? If you like dry rose’s maybe Scaccia d’avoli rose spumante brut rosé might be a good match for you.

Never been a fan of rosé of any sort. Sometimes I have some and think it isn’t so bad and I’m too tough on it, but I still never have an urge to drink it.

Guillermo, Have you ever had the Vilmart vintage Rose with a little age on it? That and a bottle of the Taittinger Comtes Rosé were the two bottles that really changed my mind on Rose Champagnes.

I have not. Thanks for the tip.

[B_Davies]

Taittinger very nice just the pricing is a bit high. I rather get the sparkling wine they make from California. It’s not much cheaper but enough to make it way easier to add to the cart for the quality. (Specifically Taittinger CA sparkling not CA sparkling in general)

[B_Davies]

“A beautiful 2006 that is still fresh on the palate but showing some lovely tertiary notes on the nose. I’ve heard that some '06s are starting to show signs of decline, but not this one. Marzipan, honey, buttered toasted brioche fill the nose while the palate is overwhelmed with still fresh citrus and apples and refreshing acidity. Long pleasing finish of fruit and brioche. Still life left in this 2006 Champagne1” - CT user

Oh no… I saw “marzipan” and was like I need to make sure Guillermo stays away from Billecart at least the 2006 vintage.

[Troy_Stark]

Lopa just sent out an offer for NV Nathalie Falmet Brut (base 2015). Anyone familiar with where they fall on the spectrum? We tend to shy away from Aube producers as the acid is sometimes lacking.

[Cris_Whetstone]

This is a strong value Champagne. For $30 its hard to beat. I wouldn’t put it next to anything that impresses but it gives you a real Champagne experience on the cheaper side. I haven’t had this disgorgement though.

[Frank_Murray_III]

Lopa just sent out an offer for NV Nathalie Falmet Brut (base 2015). Anyone familiar with where they fall on the spectrum? We tend to shy away from Aube producers as the acid is sometimes lacking.

Troy, what wines/producers are you finding low in acid from the Aube? This has not been my experience.

[Troy_Stark]

Lopa just sent out an offer for NV Nathalie Falmet Brut (base 2015). Anyone familiar with where they fall on the spectrum? We tend to shy away from Aube producers as the acid is sometimes lacking.

Troy, what wines/producers are you finding low in acid from the Aube? This has not been my experience.

Forgettable ones (i.e. I don’t remember)!

[Frank_Murray_III]

Lopa just sent out an offer for NV Nathalie Falmet Brut (base 2015). Anyone familiar with where they fall on the spectrum? We tend to shy away from Aube producers as the acid is sometimes lacking.

Troy, what wines/producers are you finding low in acid from the Aube? This has not been my experience.

Forgettable ones (i.e. I don’t remember)!

Troy, a few to think about where acidity is certainly getting it on…Marie Courtin, Remi Leroy. These two come to mind very quickly.

[Anton_D]

I think, little by little, I’ve concluded that I don’t really enjoy purposefully oxidative white wine in general and that it extends to Champagne. I can tolerate it. If it’s well-made, I can appreciate the good work, but I don’t really enjoy the flavors. The latest white wine case was a Savennières I had (typically oxidative winemaking in that appellation) that I disliked a lot, even though I love good Vouvray: same grape, same region, traditionally distinguished from Savennières as much by its reductive winemaking style as by its cooler climat.

There’s already a thread on No Malo Champagne that I’ve started to try to pursue in buying. But, while related, it’s not clear which producers use a reductive approach, or at least one which isn’t noticeably oxidative. Searches for reductive notes here mention a Krug BdB, a Salon, Laherte-Freres and a Roederer (that I could find).

Can anyone point me to good reductive or at least not noticeably oxidative Champagnes?

I have found similarly that I am not a fan of oxidative styles in Champagne. For me, that means that I only age a few Champagnes (as there are a few exceptions to the aged Champagne that I really do enjoy. For me, that means drinking many/most Champagnes within the first 3-6 years of purchase. Producers I’ve found that do not seem oxidative in this early stage of life include Dom Perignon, Cedric Bouchard, Taittinger Comtes, Heidsieck Blanc des Millenaires, and it seems that most Blanc de Blancs are safe as they seem less oxidative in style on release.

Crushed it!

[Warren_Taranow]

I’m feeling like an outlier. I’m a fan of aged Champagne. I don’t think of oxidized as a flaw unless it’s dominated by apple cider flavors and aromas. I love the complexity of smells, tastes, and textures that develop with age, including cacao and coffee, hazelnut and almond, toasted sweet or spice bread, honey and mushroom, as long as they’re accompanied by some freshness and crispness. I also like bracing young Champagnes (hey, I guess I’m easy), but on the whole, I’d rather wait years from release to open most of my vintage and NV Champagne.

Cheers,
Warren

[Greg_K]

I’m feeling like an outlier. I’m a fan of aged Champagne. I don’t think of oxidized as a flaw unless it’s dominated by apple cider flavors and aromas. I love the complexity of smells, tastes, and textures that develop with age, including cacao and coffee, hazelnut and almond, toasted sweet or spice bread, honey and mushroom, as long as they’re accompanied by some freshness and crispness. I also like bracing young Champagnes (hey, I guess I’m easy), but on the whole, I’d rather wait years from release to open most of my vintage and NV Champagne.

Cheers,
Warren

I’m with you Warren. I dislike oxidative and oxidated champagne (and sadly too much older champagne falls into the latter category), but I’ve found some of the best champagnes I’ve had are older. I also think there’s quite a bit of interplay these days between what people view as “oxidative” champagne and the judicious use of good oak by growers. I just had a recent release Collin Maillons blind and called it Krug (and wasn’t too bothered by the bad miss); I think the extended aging on the lees really tells there. And it’s not oxidative (despite the “Selosse acolyte” some of the Collin importer marketing materials).
To come back to your point more directly, I also think some of the big house champagnes especially are meant to be aged (especially with the higher dosage), so while the 08 Comtes is good now, it won’t hit its peak for some time. I’ve not had the 95 Comtes next to the 2008, but the 95 was the best champagne this year at a dinner with a bunch of 90s Salon - it’s a brilliant wine; but it took age to get there.
I should add, I have no problems drinking some champagne young either (especially grower champagne that I think is meant to be drunk younger); I love acid. Not all wine is meant to or needs to be aged. But I think some champagne does.

[Jayson_Cohen]

The Maillard reactions that help give aging Champagne its characteristics and “patina” are complicated but fit into a class of oxidation-reduction reactions in which oxygen (per se) can but need not play a role. It requires sugars (partly dosage normally) and amino acids that result from wine making, largely lees aging.

AFAIK, some Champagnes seen as reductive allow the reactions to take place slowly, or only after a threshold of degradation of sulfur-based shielding molecules react over time, but it’s pretty complex chemically.

It’s not clear to me whether true non-dosage Champagnes (including some we think of as oxidative) have the potential because although many of them undergo less aging, allowing for a sense of richness or weight, they don’t seem to have the sugar necessary to proceed to a Maillard process. Or at least I don’t understand how they would.

[B_Davies]

I just tried the Castell d’Age Anne Marie Brut Nature Reserva was VERY high acid. if you like dry wines from the Alsace this might be the sparkling wine for you although it’s a Cava and not a Champagne. Pretty cheap bubbly, woman owned, biodynamic farming… very clean tasting made with the traditional method. No oxidation at all.

[D_W_i_l_l_i_g_e_r]

I’m feeling like an outlier. I’m a fan of aged Champagne. I don’t think of oxidized as a flaw unless it’s dominated by apple cider flavors and aromas. I love the complexity of smells, tastes, and textures that develop with age, including cacao and coffee, hazelnut and almond, toasted sweet or spice bread, honey and mushroom, as long as they’re accompanied by some freshness and crispness. I also like bracing young Champagnes (hey, I guess I’m easy), but on the whole, I’d rather wait years from release to open most of my vintage and NV Champagne.

Cheers,
Warren

I also like aged Champagne but there is a point where oxidative goes too far. An example would be Jacques Selosse Substance. Solera method, lot of older vintages, but too much for my palate. Selosses Initial is great, but my experiences with Substance from years ago were disappointing

[B_Davies]

I don’t mind oxidation on wines that have significant age. I’ve had some current released champagnes that tasted like a handful of mixed nuts. Too me that was overly oxidized. I think when it adds depth and a little umami but still has good fruit I’m okay with that.

[Charlie_Carnes]

I think you have to be careful with reductive vs. oxidative and really define the meaning of what oxidative is or what style you are looking for. Wines made in a reductive, stainless steel environment can taste identical to wines made in a more oxidative, barrel aged environment - especially as they age. This can lead to a very reductive wine that has seen a lot of reserve wines or post-disgorgement aging tasting similar to a wine made in what would be defined as a more oxidative environment. Likewise, wines made in barrel, can still come across as reductive.

Krug really isn’t all that oxidative. The wine spends most of its life in a reductive environment. Put it in a lineup of other barrel aged or oxidative wines and it is a very quiet soul. There is a lot more that goes into the Krug style than the three months the wines spend in fairly old oak barrels.

Outside of the general statement of reductive vs. oxidative, I think you really need to define if you are looking for richness, bright fruit, spice, steely sharpness, creamines, etc…

For example, Vilmart is made in oak and the Coeur de Cuvee is made in a mix of new to 3 year old barrels. The wines do not come across as oxidative at all, but rather what I would classify as more reductive with spicy notes. Charles Heidsieck is reductive in style, but the wines can be quite rich and creamy. Pierre Peters is also more reductive in style, but with time or when you drink a wine of Rodolphe’s that has a good amount of reserves in it, you get something that is both rich, creamy, bright, fruity, and sharp.

Complicating things even more is that you need to look at how the winemaking is handled in terms of sulfur use especially at disgorgement. I’ve seen wines taste reductive in one environment and very oxidative in another based on the what I can only call mishandling at disgorgement. Low/No sulfur wines often don’t travel well internationally and that can lead to a wine tasting one way in Champagne and completely differently in North America.

Some classic producers who are on the purity side of things and reductive in style are: Piper-Heidsieck, Veuve Clicquot, Lilbert, Pierre Peters, Lancelot-Pienne, Laurent-Perrier, Billecart-Salmon, Guiborat, Gosset, and Ruinart.

On the richer, but still reductive side to me would be Charles Heidsieck, Dom Perignon, Taittinger, Roederer, A Margaine, Hure, Etienne Calsac, Vilmart, Hebrart, Geoffroy.

There are lots, lots more, but above is what popped to mind first.

Thanks Brad - super helpful!

Its interesting that Krug isn’t really made in an oxidative style, but it sure comes across that way to me. Do you think its actually something else that im tasting with Krug that seems oxidative?? Or maybe im just super sensitive to it, as a little bit definitley throws things off a lot for me. Thx!

Rich, good question. What you are describing about Krug splits us. I love it, LOVE it, and understand it as Brad explains. Julie just turned up her nose at a 6 pack I brought in the door on Christmas eve! She does not love it, I cannot sneak a glass to her.

[J_Galang]

It doesn’t strike me as a piece that has aged very well, as the best growers continue to refine their craft, and extreme vintage conditions throw into ever heightened relief the determinative importance of good farming in the production of great wine. The market seems to have taken this onboard: the just released 2008 Selosse is trading for higher prices than any of this year’s (or, for that matter, last year’s) grande marque releases.

Saw some prices at iDealwine Auctions for this…crazy!!! And it hasn’t even hammered yet!

[Brad_Baker]

It doesn’t strike me as a piece that has aged very well, as the best growers continue to refine their craft, and extreme vintage conditions throw into ever heightened relief the determinative importance of good farming in the production of great wine. The market seems to have taken this onboard: the just released 2008 Selosse is trading for higher prices than any of this year’s (or, for that matter, last year’s) grande marque releases.

Saw some prices at iDealwine Auctions for this…crazy!!! And it hasn’t even hammered yet!

Those prices are crazy - more than 10x domaine pricing. I’ve never seen the current millesime release be that hard to find for 3-4x in the past. Selosse has raised the domaine pricing on this quite a bit (percentage-wise) over the last decade, but it is still reasonable. I guess it is just going to keep going higher.