Rousseau: is it overrated by us critics ?

[Howard_Cooper]

We are at a point where the premium for critic favorites are extreme. Producers like Rousseau, Mugnier and Roumier, for example, make great wines but there are a number of other producers who, IMHO, also make great wines from the same appellations that sell for a fraction of the price.

For example, Rousseau Chambertins go for about $1500-2000. Those from Rossignol-Trapet go for $200-300.

Roumier les Cras sells for $300-500 or so. Barthod for $150-200.


Mugnier Fuees sells for $250-300. Jadot for a bit over $100.

We could go on and on.

[jcoley3]

Great, thoughtful first post here, Martin (praise for me aside ). I hope you’ll stay and contribute more.

Part of the difficulty is that these wines are made in tiny qualities, and few if any of us get to try (or, frankly, have tried) them extensively as they move from youth to middle age to full maturity. Your point about the 99 LSJs is one that I have raised on occasion - certain producers were deemed as “overoaked” during that era and vintage. Mortet being one, and Perrot-Minot certainly being another. I have not been able to track Mortet much past 05, but I have been able to taste the evolution of Perrot-Minot from the mid-90s until now, and there has been a significant evolution in style from (by Christophe’s own admission) from genuinely over-oaked and extracted to much more gentle handling now (I would say 04 forward, with 06 being a more certain breaking point). However, most consumer-based criticism of P-M discusses the style of a different and earlier era.

I think it’s worth approaching great wines like these with less certainty about any hierarchy. It has served me well in exploring.

I do think deliciousness and authenticity overlap. I happen to think some of the misguided professional criticism of DRC stemmed from (pun somewhat intended) being hard to approach young. Rousseau is, in my admittedly limited experience, been among the most approachable early of the “great” producers.

What makes “tradition” in Burgundy seems like a minefield (h/t RMP) - though a fun one if no one takes differences of opinions personally.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Greg Pierce

Based upon my limited experience, Rousseau is not overrated. Instead it is often underrated. The Chambertin and CdB are some of the few grand crus that have – in my limited experience – been astoundingly delicious at every stage of their development – young, somewhat young, medium, somewhat older medium, youngish-but-aged, aged, and questionable due to age. Also, while my Rousseau experience is largely limited to Chambertin/Beze/ClosSt.Jaques, every Rousseau I’ve had has been pretty damn amazingly delicious.

Sadly, I can’t afford them anymore.

Also, while my Rousseau experience is largely limited to Chambertin/Beze/ClosSt.Jaques, every Rousseau I’ve had has been pretty damn amazingly delicious.

Totally agee … if it is what bungundy lovers are look for : pretty dam amazingly delicious; but… …Pierre Damoy’ Bezs and Chambertin …are wines for conptemplation

[Howard_Davis]

As Roussseau is one of the best Domaines in all of Burgundy, I’m not sure how they can be overrated?

Anyway, at a personal level, when I think of all of the peak or epiphany moments I’ve had over the years with red Burgundy, the Domaine that has provided the most of those is Rousseau.

Whether they are good QPR or what percentage of the ‘Rousseau experience’ you can get cheaper from other houses, seem like different questions to me.

[CFu]

@Howard Davis

As Roussseau is one of the best Domaines in all of Burgundy, I’m not sure how they can be overrated?

Anyway, at a personal level, when I think of all of the peak or epiphany moments I’ve had over the years with red Burgundy, the Domaine that has provided the most of those is Rousseau.

Whether they are good QPR or what percentage of the ‘Rousseau experience’ you can get cheaper from other houses, seem like different questions to me.

Agreed 100%. I don’t think anyone here is actually arguing Morten and trapet are actually better than Rousseau with pricing equal right?

[crickey]

@c fu

@Howard Davis

As Roussseau is one of the best Domaines in all of Burgundy, I’m not sure how they can be overrated?

Anyway, at a personal level, when I think of all of the peak or epiphany moments I’ve had over the years with red Burgundy, the Domaine that has provided the most of those is Rousseau.

Whether they are good QPR or what percentage of the ‘Rousseau experience’ you can get cheaper from other houses, seem like different questions to me.

Agreed 100%. I don’t think anyone here is actually arguing Morten and trapet are actually better than Rousseau with pricing equal right?

2015 scores

Trapet Chambertin:

Gilman 98
Burghound 97
Tanzer 96
Neal Martin 96-98

Rousseau Chambertin:

Gilman 98
Burghound 98
Tanzer 98+
Neal Martin 97-99

Pretty close. Slight edge to the Rousseau. It looks like US (counting Neal as as US critic) critics like both a lot. Maybe both are overrated.

[jcoley3]

If we change the original topic to “overpriced by U.S. Consumers,” do we have perhaps a more useful discussion?

I went out with my younger brother a few nights ago. He was wearing a custom Isaia jacket, vs. my more mundane Canali coat. He paid about 20 times more for his jacket than mine (I guess?) - and I’m sure it was finer. No one cared except him.

[CFu]

@jcoley3

If we change the original topic to “overpriced by U.S. Consumers,” do we have perhaps a more useful discussion?

I went out with my younger brother a few nights ago. He was wearing a custom Isaia jacket, vs. my more mundane Canali coat. He paid about 20 times more for his jacket than mine (I guess?) - and I’m sure it was finer. No one cared except him.

What is worth what to people is purely subjective. To my neighbor two buck chuck is all she needs.

Rousseau and Trapet are not just over priced by US consumers, the price is pretty damn expensive across the pond as well.

[John_Morris]

@c fu

Don’t know who that is. But anyone that places trapet and perrot minot over Rousseau is someone I can put on my list to ignore.


Better question. Is trapet and perrot Minot highly overrated by French critics?

@Emmanuel Menger

Rvf for example routinely places Trapet at the top. For the 2015 vintage: mortet, perrot minot and trapet above rousseau.
Less extreme with bettane but ratings are rarely showing rousseau at the top (maybe because they do not taste wines at the estate ?)

Rvf = Revue de Vin de France

[larry_schaffer]

Could this also be the case that because of ‘reputation’, the estate will always be ‘highly rated’, regardless of what’s ‘inside the bottle’? That certain producers in Burgundy are ‘given the benefit of the doubt’ with regards to perhaps a wine ‘not showing well so it must be shut down’ versus another producer, who in the same case would be panned for their wines showing the same way? We know that happens here all of the time. There is a ‘self fulfilling prophecy’ so to speak . . .

Reminds me of when I worked for another winery - and our ‘best lots’ would always go into the tanks for fermentation that we considered producing the best results. But what if some of the ‘lesser’ lots when into these - would they then become ‘best lots’?

You can look at current threads and see people enjoying wines that they did not enjoy young - but ‘kept with them because of producer’ - whereas others that did not show well when young were ‘written off’.

Just another question to consider perhaps?

[jcoley3]

@c fu

@jcoley3

If we change the original topic to “overpriced by U.S. Consumers,” do we have perhaps a more useful discussion?

I went out with my younger brother a few nights ago. He was wearing a custom Isaia jacket, vs. my more mundane Canali coat. He paid about 20 times more for his jacket than mine (I guess?) - and I’m sure it was finer. No one cared except him.

What is worth what to people is purely subjective. To my neighbor two buck chuck is all she needs.

Rousseau and Trapet are not just over priced by US consumers, the price is pretty damn expensive across the pond as well.

Nah, Charlie. That is way too reductive and silly. This is, in theory, a discussion between people who experience Grand Cru Burgundy with some regularity. Let’s put that talk into the proper context. We should, in theory, all be able to discuss quality and value on the topic without heading off to Trader Joe’s for trash for no good reason.

[CFu]

@jcoley3

@c fu

@jcoley3

If we change the original topic to “overpriced by U.S. Consumers,” do we have perhaps a more useful discussion?

I went out with my younger brother a few nights ago. He was wearing a custom Isaia jacket, vs. my more mundane Canali coat. He paid about 20 times more for his jacket than mine (I guess?) - and I’m sure it was finer. No one cared except him.

What is worth what to people is purely subjective. To my neighbor two buck chuck is all she needs.

Rousseau and Trapet are not just over priced by US consumers, the price is pretty damn expensive across the pond as well.

Nah, Charlie. That is way too reductive and silly. This is, in theory, a discussion between people who experience Grand Cru Burgundy with some regularity. Let’s put that talk into the proper context. We should, in theory, all be able to discuss quality and value on the topic without heading off to Trader Joe’s for trash for no good reason.

Yet you’ve avoided the question at hand. Is Rousseau over rated by critics?

Price doesn’t come into consideration when “ranking” wines for quality. Regardless, nowadays you can’t get 6 Trapet Chambertin for 1 Rousseau Chambertin. It’s closer to 1:2/3 on release. Critics exist in a vacuum where they are ranking wines without consideration of price.

[Karl_K]

I like Rousseau.

I like Trapet.

I like B. Clair.

I like more.

I would like to try more of the above.

[Tom_Reddick]

I think others have covered all the bases, but I will chime in to say- based on personal experience- I do believe that Rousseau is truly one of a handful of consistently great producers that regularly achieves that extra bit of “specialness” which merits the incredibly strong demand for the wines.

Disagreeing with some, I would further say that praise is deserved across pretty much the entire portfolio (with the caveat I have very few TNs for either the Mazi or the Charmes.) The Ruchottes is a particular favorite of mine.

Further, Rousseau can really make knockout wines in so-called “off vintages”. The 1994s were quite good, and one of my fondest memories of the past decade was a brilliant 1986 Chambertin at full maturity and in full cry- so to speak.

[jcoley3]

@c fu

Yet you’ve avoided the question at hand. Is Rousseau over rated by critics?

Oh, if you want me to be blunt, I can. No. They’re genuinely great wines. Again, I’m not discussing 2BC - that’s your thing so far…

It’s when we pretend there’s some massive qualitative gap between Rousseau and Trapet that I think these discussions get silly. That’s where I buy the critics a little more than the consumers, because, as you note, it’s the consumers who have to pay up for the qualitative difference, and if you think that paying a lot more for Rousseau doesn’t extend the payer’s hopes and faith in the wine’s qualities, and if you think there’s not a small group of buyers that collectively reinforce that groupthink, well…you aren’t moderating this board (or buying Burgs for 20+ years).

Not saying that Rousseau might not be more inherently pleasing. Glad to hear that Trapet has closed the price gap. Nice guy.

[CFu]

@jcoley3

@c fu

Yet you’ve avoided the question at hand. Is Rousseau over rated by critics?

Oh, if you want me to be blunt, I can. No. They’re genuinely great wines. Again, I’m not discussing 2BC - that’s your thing so far…

It’s when we pretend there’s some massive qualitative gap between Rousseau and Trapet that I think these discussions get silly. That’s where I buy the critics a little more than the consumers, because, as you note, it’s the consumers who have to pay up for the qualitative difference, and if you think that paying a lot more for Rousseau doesn’t extend the payer’s hopes and faith in the wine’s qualities, and if you think there’s not a small group of buyers that collectively reinforce that groupthink, well…you aren’t moderating this board.

Not saying that Rousseau might not be more inherently pleasing. Glad to hear that Trapet has closed the price gap. Nice guy.

So ok. You agree, Rousseau isn’t over rated by US Critics.

That’s the whole point of this thread. shrug

[jcoley3]

@Emmanuel Menger

So my question for you folks: do you think rousseau has such a strong edge over its neighbours ?

@c fu

So ok. You agree, Rousseau isn’t over rated by US Critics.

That’s the whole point of this thread. shrug

Reading! Fundamental. Thread title vs. actual thrust of OP.

No, Rousseau does not have that strong an edge.

[Karl_K]

Agree with what Tom said about 94 Rousseau.

Had the 1994 Rousseau Charmes in 2007 and it was quite nice.

[CFu]

@jcoley3

@Emmanuel Menger

So my question for you folks: do you think rousseau has such a strong edge over its neighbours ?

@c fu

So ok. You agree, Rousseau isn’t over rated by US Critics.

That’s the whole point of this thread. shrug

Reading! Fundamental. Thread title vs. actual thrust of OP.

No, Rousseau does not have that strong an edge.

Not my fault that OP can’t keep his own thread as one question .

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

@jcoley3

Ian,

I think just about everyone engages in some groupthink when engaged in Burgundy! Myself included.

I do think the best estates really are, more often than not, the “best estates.” It’s just my experience, reinforced by some blinding, that the gap is not quite as wide between the top and the second-tier as many profess, and that this is where the disconnect often happens.

I really do agree with this thought. We want what we like to be “the best”, and when a good/ great winery becomes popular now it seems to go beyond
what is in the bottle.
Roulot and Clos Rougeard are both wines I have loved a long time. But both seem to have developed into wineries where reality blurs a little bit these days.

That said, Rousseau has provided me with more of my superlative Burgundy experiences than any other Domain. I wish my sample group was bigger but they are my top Burgundy producer.