Single vineyard vs regional , Professional vs enthusiast- Warning- Long and Rambling

[Andrew_K]

My goal this year is to do an in depth tasting of a single vineyard, maybe Clos de la Roche or Ruchottes, anyone interested?

We’re talking about doing an in depth tasting of… La Tâche.

[MChang]

My goal this year is to do an in depth tasting of a single vineyard, maybe Clos de la Roche or Ruchottes, anyone interested?

We’re talking about doing an in depth tasting of… La Tâche.

That’d be fun too

[Hank_Victor]

One example:

Let’s say, hypothetically that blending DRC RSV and Richebourg created a better wine.

Even if that were the case, my understanding is that they’d have to call it vosne Romanee 1er and it would sell for less.

Why would you assume it would automatically sell for less? If it is truly a better wine the market would recognize it. Just like the other countless 1er burgs that outsell GC.

[Jon_Drummond]

The high level of focus on single vineyards by most regions outside of Burgundy and Piedmont are mostly copycat strategies for upselling and charging higher prices, and having additional SKUs to sell.

Like the initial poster indicated, very few people consume significant enough quantities of the wines in the required settings to really discern the small differences. Most of it is academic.

It’s similar to how fast cars and expensive watches are marketed. 0-100 in 3 seconds, top speed 200mph…but practical application of this in real life? Basically zero. Expensive watches having features like minute repeaters etc…minimal practical application in real life.

[Rick_Allen]

The high level of focus on single vineyards by most regions outside of Burgundy and Piedmont are mostly copycat strategies for upselling and charging higher prices, and having additional SKUs to sell.

Like the initial poster indicated, very few people consume significant enough quantities of the wines in the required settings to really discern the small differences. Most of it is academic.

It’s similar to how fast cars and expensive watches are marketed. 0-100 in 3 seconds, top speed 200mph…but practical application of this in real life? Basically zero. Expensive watches having features like minute repeaters etc…minimal practical application in real life.

[ChrisJames]

The high level of focus on single vineyards by most regions outside of Burgundy and Piedmont are mostly copycat strategies for upselling and charging higher prices, and having additional SKUs to sell.

That seems like a rather sweeping statement that could be disputed by producers from Champagne to Oregon. I do want to point out that single vineyard pioneers in Piedmont, such as Beppe Colla, went and studied vineyards in Burgundy before attempting it at home. So I guess that makes them copycats… They were widely scorned for their efforts, but they believed in the quality. The hundreds of producers who followed their example? I suspect plenty of them are guilty of the offense you highlight. But I also have to think that most winemakers, like most artisans, have a passion for their work that goes beyond just having a day job to make a buck.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

The high level of focus on single vineyards by most regions outside of Burgundy and Piedmont are mostly copycat strategies for upselling and charging higher prices, and having additional SKUs to sell.

Like the initial poster indicated, very few people consume significant enough quantities of the wines in the required settings to really discern the small differences. Most of it is academic.

It’s similar to how fast cars and expensive watches are marketed. 0-100 in 3 seconds, top speed 200mph…but practical application of this in real life? Basically zero. Expensive watches having features like minute repeaters etc…minimal practical application in real life.

Lol…

We can agree to disagree completely.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

The high level of focus on single vineyards by most regions outside of Burgundy and Piedmont are mostly copycat strategies for upselling and charging higher prices, and having additional SKUs to sell.

That seems like a rather sweeping statement that could be disputed by producers from Champagne to Oregon. I do want to point out that single vineyard pioneers in Piedmont, such as Beppe Colla, went and studied vineyards in Burgundy before attempting it at home. So I guess that makes them copycats… They were widely scorned for their efforts, but they believed in the quality. The hundreds of producers who followed their example? I suspect plenty of them are guilty of the offense you highlight. But I also have to think that most winemakers, like most artisans, have a passion for their work that goes beyond just having a day job to make a buck.

I could care less about the money. I made 50 cases of my first vineyard designate in 2005. It had nothing to do with money or SKUs. It was the first year I had enough fruit from one vineyard to make it and the quality to justify it.

I did the first vertical tasting of my multi-vineyard tete-de-cuvee in 2010 (2004-2008) and every wine was very good but the tasting was very boring. It illustrated what I thought was the best wine, and while delicious, it was like reading the same book over and over again. It sucked and I made the commitment to changing my label to my name, and the vast majority of the bottlings to the vineyards. Declassifying anything that wouldn’t have gone into site specific wines into AVA bottlings and the Willamette Valley(even the AVA wines are site specific).

Are my site specific wines more expensive than my blends…yes. Because they are better wines.

Are they more expensive than my old Tete de Cuvee wine? Yes, I am a better winemaker these days, and costs of production are up.

But they’re considerably less expensive than wines like Domaine Serene’s Monogram or DDO’s Louise. Scarcity isn’t limited to single site wines. They’re also less expensive than Silver Oak or of the Bordeaux that board members buy.

Does my post mean that no one is producing single vineyards to charge more for perceived scarcity? No, plenty of expensive vineyard designates from 5th leaf fruit drop into the market at inflated prices all the time.

But the differences are not at all similar to the differences between luxury sports cars 0-60 times. Their more similar to the differences between all types of sports cars.

Every site based wine I make is easily separated from my other wines. And the difference between my wnes and Walter Scott are also easily differentiated, even though (IMO) the quality of wines are similar. Then look at regional differences, and it’s a myriad of different expressions that are intimidating to be sure, but in no way similar to the level of difference in the “how fast to 60” between cars. Palacios single vineyard Mencias are not a hairs breadth in difference from Rioja. They’re not even a hairs breadth difference from the Petalos bottling.

It’s easy to pooh-pooh terroir…cheaper too.

[Zachary_Pearson]

Overall, I think you’re correct in your assessment that things are trending toward more specific wines than more general ones. And since you bring up Champagne, it got me thinking… I remember reading Terry Theise’s Chmpagne catalog back in 2002 and one of the first pages talks about why he wants to offer grower Champagne rather than negociant stuff. He imagines a (completely fictional I’m sure) “Mr. Guigal” walking into a retail establishment and telling their buyer about his new wine called “Rhone”. This wine is a blend of the major appellations of the region and has some percentage of the juice that’s a house secret, and it’s non vintage because the quality is always consistent. He asks the reader to imagine the horror of no more Chateauneuf du Pape, or Cote Rotie or Cornas or Hermitage - with all their uniqueness blended into a regional “Rhone” wine. Then he drops the hammer - this is exactly what happens in the world of Champagne every day.

Terry started bringing in Pierre Peters in 1997, and (I had to check this), the first vintage of Les Chetillons that was labelled as such was the 2000. Before then it was “Cuvee Speciale”. Why the sudden change? Because someone (either Rodolphe or Terry or someone else) thought it was important to call out this specific place. That it wasn’t enough just to say “here’s my best wine”, but that “my best wine comes from a place”.

So here’s the qui bono: Why has the trend been away from general wines like “Rhone” or “Champagne” or “St. Estephe” and toward village or vineyard or parcel wines? I’d argue that large producers benefit from the generic and smaller ones from the specific. And I’d bet that if you look through your notes over enough time you might find that certain places makes wines you like. Would the average wine consumer be able to make even two Grand Cru in Champagne? Probably not. But if you find that you like Verzenay or Oger or Cramant… it’s a lot easier these days to find other people making wine from the same place.

Thanks,

Zachary

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

If it’s all about marketing, and tasting individual stuff is hard without context, shouldn’t restaurants just serve one dish that combines all the food?

What’s a pork chop on its own if you’re not getting the lamb too? What’s the chef holding back?

Why the fetishization of individual plates of food? Who’s to say the blend wouldn’t be better?

I hope that’s tongue in cheek Mr. V. Though it kind of sounds like you’re describing a gyro…and good ones are a near perfect food.

Touché! Indeed sarcastic, but I hadn’t thought of the gyro. Must rethink my thesis.

In all seriousness, the OP was fantastic. The answer is not “it’s marketing.”

[ChrisJames]

If it’s all about marketing, and tasting individual stuff is hard without context, shouldn’t restaurants just serve one dish that combines all the food?

What’s a pork chop on its own if you’re not getting the lamb too? What’s the chef holding back?

Why the fetishization of individual plates of food? Who’s to say the blend wouldn’t be better?

I hope that’s tongue in cheek Mr. V. Though it kind of sounds like you’re describing a gyro…and good ones are a near perfect food.

And what about Bork? It’s is one of the Mid-West’s great contributions to American cuisine (along with fruit cocktail and cottage cheese salad).

[Jim_Anderson]

Scrapple.

That’s my contribution to this thread. I’m too busy counting all my money to weigh in substantially other than that.

[ChrisJames]

Scrapple.

That’s my contribution to this thread. I’m too busy counting all my money to weigh in substantially other than that.

Yeah, you must be one of the worst offenders in cynically piling on SKU after SKU.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Scrapple.

That’s my contribution to this thread. I’m too busy counting all my money to weigh in substantially other than that.

So, I’ll play Oscar Wilde and say, “I wish I had said that.”

And you can be Whistler, and say, “You will Oscar, you will.”

Well played…

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Also, it was noted that the English actually invented soccer, and that all other countries are basically just copy cats playing the game in order to increase profitability and that the World Cup is basically a scam to make money off of people’s national loyalties, because cultural differences in how the game is played don’t actually exist.

To be fair…that does sound a bit like FIFA.

[Adam_Frisch]

It’s easy to pooh-pooh terroir…cheaper too.

The only problem I have with terroir is that “they” have made the connection that expensive real estate means good terroir. That is my only big gripe with the terroir movement - it’s much more real estate value protection than it is actual wine quality. I truly believe that you can make great wines from cheaper real estate if you’re an intuitive winemaker. And I think the world is starting to see that now - you and I both would not sell any wine if that wasn’t the case. Chateau Musar wouldn’t either.

[Jim_Anderson]

Also, it was noted that the English actually invented soccer, and that all other countries are basically just copy cats playing the game in order to increase profitability and that the World Cup is basically a scam to make money off of people’s national loyalties, because cultural differences in how the game is played don’t actually exist.

To be fair…that does sound a bit like FIFA.

On a good day. I find it difficult to ascribe any positive aspect to FIFA.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

It’s easy to pooh-pooh terroir…cheaper too.

The only problem I have with terroir is that “they” have made the connection that expensive real estate means good terroir. That is my only big gripe with the terroir movement - it’s much more real estate value protection than it is actual wine quality. I truly believe that you can make great wines from cheaper real estate if you’re an intuitive winemaker. And I think the world is starting to see that now - you and I both would not sell any wine if that wasn’t the case. Chateau Musar wouldn’t either.

Expensive or less expensive have nothing to do with terroir. Your argument is “charted” and “uncharted”.

There isn’t a person on this board or in the 99.9999% of the known world that had ever heard of Fir Crest. That didn’t stop me from separating the wines according to the vineyard. Easiest way to deal with “They” is forge ahead anyway.

And I would freely concede that I have yet to make a wine comparable to La Tache. I am still working on it though.

[Noah_C]

And I would freely concede that I have yet to make a wine comparable to La Tache. I am still working on it though.

Let us know when you do. And I hope you give us WBers first crack at 'em!

[Brent_C_l_a_y_t_o_n]

I guess this MW needs a better education…