Smoke, Meat Aromas in Syrah?

[Scott_E1]

I am constantly on the search for these qualities in a syrah. Do you find that smoke and meat is also accompanied by that briny/saline olive touch too - yum!! I wish it was more common - seems like I’ve found it more often in Washington syrahs and you can’t really say that it is a cool climate area.

[Ramon_C]

@Scott E.

I am constantly on the search for these qualities in a syrah. Do you find that smoke and meat is also accompanied by that briny/saline olive touch too - yum!! I wish it was more common - seems like I’ve found it more often in Washington syrahs and you can’t really say that it is a cool climate area.

This …

@Robert Alfert

Cooler climate, Northern Rhone syrah typically exhibits smoked meats, salinity, iron, rust, iodine, pepper, black olives. Drinking a 2011 Copain that exhibits some lovely, peppery and ripe fruit, but none of the tell-tale signs of traditional syrah. I can tell it’s syrah, but it’s syrah-lite.

[Jay_Miller]

@Scott E.

I am constantly on the search for these qualities in a syrah. Do you find that smoke and meat is also accompanied by that briny/saline olive touch too - yum!! I wish it was more common - seems like I’ve found it more often in Washington syrahs and you can’t really say that it is a cool climate area.

I think Kevin Harvey has said the olivey note is usually only found in syrahs that use stems. I love it too.

[Macario_Montoya]

I work with Syrah from a cooler climate and in comparison tastings with other Syrah’s, those qualities mentioned above tend to come from cooler sites. I find that certain clones of Syrah (Estrella River and Syrah Noir) produce more of those cool qualities then do 877 or some of the Alban Clones.

[Ken_Zinns]

@Jay Miller

@Scott E.

I am constantly on the search for these qualities in a syrah. Do you find that smoke and meat is also accompanied by that briny/saline olive touch too - yum!! I wish it was more common - seems like I’ve found it more often in Washington syrahs and you can’t really say that it is a cool climate area.

I think Kevin Harvey has said the olivey note is usually only found in syrahs that use stems. I love it too.

Not by any means only in Syrahs with stems. I’ve helped make Syrah in the past from Las Madres Vineyard in Carneros (quite a cool climate for Syrah), rarely used any whole clusters, and the wines almost always had a black olive character - sometimes it was very prominent.

[John_D_Zuccarino]

Solved … As for the source of bacon in wine in general provided by science… coming from oak, sure another point of early on infection called Brett … So from an oak perspective certain drying conditions facilitate the introduction of Brett … Now that we know this , producers, brokers -importers of barrels now have another tool to dial in on the barrels , casks that have the propensity to deliver this nuance … It’s a great sales tool… (Mell maybe you can utilize this new information and implement it as a guide for your consumers) ?

Used with permission by author for education as stated in the introduction …

Trent E. Johnson
A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy
University of Adelaide Faculty of Sciences
School of Agriculture, Food and Wine Wine Science and Business Group

Source click on me

The nuance of bacon fat is a BRETT INFECTION … changed his love of wine lacking the Brett nuance…


Just as in how a ice wine need a crazy amount of Volatile acid to lift aroma, some would call a flaw… Some wines that utilize Brett like Syrah to deliver the savory organoleptic profile of meats , specifically bacon fat …

Buried around page 210 they find that consumers like fruits far better than meats in wine … The minority like the ‘bacon fat’ , so it’s recommended for mass markets to avoid this nuance… That said to approach hedonistic bliss this nuance seemed to be needed…

However, the absence of the third identified dimension which described an “earthy, savoury, dusty and meaty” (ESDM) character was the primary driver of their hedonic and quality ratings



The MDS solution provided 2 dimensions that are often associated with Australian Shiraz – “blackberry, plum, pepper and spice” (BPPS) and “herbal, vanilla, cedar and berry jam” (HVCBJ) characters. Wines perceived as having moderate levels of both these dimensions’ characteristics, were favourably received by the experts. > However, the absence of the third identified dimension which described an “earthy, savoury, dusty and meaty” (ESDM) character was the primary driver of their hedonic and quality ratings. > This ESDM dimension contained both positive descriptors like meaty and earthy (the latter being an ambiguous term but in this study the experts were referring to more developed fruit character (Iland and Gago, 2002)) and negative descriptors related to the (perceived) presence of Brettanomyces character, Some of the more expensive wines were perceived as having that ESDM character and this may have contributed to their lower than expected hedonic and quality scores. Of the seven wines identified by the experts as having this character, four had 4-EG/4-EP values within the range that would be considered responsible for a “Brettanomyces” fault (Chatonnet 1992). It would therefore appear that the experts were recognising the presence of this fault in some of the wines and subsequently marked down their quality and liking scores for those wines. The presence of some ESDM characters and the absence of primary fruit characters was also a detriment to higher quality and liking scores. The PLS undertaken in respect of both the liking and quality scores confirmed that the BPPS dimension was a positive factor in both scores and that the ESDM dimension was the major negative factor in both. It seemed that the experts’ technical quality evaluation of the wines contributed to their hedonic liking scores,
148

Your additional comments are much appreciated …

Cheers!!!

[Marc_Frontario]

@Beau Carufel

I think it depends on the site and vintage, as well as winemaking decisions. There are different kinds of smoky/meaty too, for me at least. For example, one of my 2013 syrah barrels showed a meaty/savory quality to it until it was racked. That aroma is one I commonly associate with reduction. On the other hand, I had a Faury Saint-Joseph recently that was full of the smoky/meaty aromas that I love.

If this was the case then I would never rack my wine ever again…lol

[Kenny_H]

@GregT

Yes we did. This is a much more pleasant topic than some recurring themes.

Not really. Isn’t it about time for another Parker thread? Can’t beat those for sheer entertainment value!

Jeff - 4-ethyl guaiacol, which you get with brett, in lower doses, can have a rather nice smell of smoked bacon. That would not be inconsistent with Mel’s note about barrels (see the current brett thread rather than repeat all that here).

Remember that what we perceive is greater than the simple sum of the parts. We synthesize all of the information rather than parse it out separately, which is why TNs often don’t make a lot of sense. So what we perceive will be heavily influenced on concentration, temperature, our physical condition, the presence and/or absence of other compounds, etc.

Anyhow, I like that aroma, whatever it is and wherever it’s from. I’ve picked it up in a few wines from CA as well as the afore-mentioned wines from Europe. Another one I love is the peppery note that some Syrah can exhibit, which is from a molecule called rotundone. It’s what makes black pepper smell and taste like well, black pepper. It’s not unique to Syrah by any means - I’ve found it frequently in Blaufranisch, Zin, Tempranillo, and Grenache and I’m sure it can appear in other wines. Never found it in Cab/Merlot wines for some reason and I’m not sure why. Anyhow, if you blend that with the smokey note and maybe some dark cherry notes, that’s a good wine by my standards!

Man crush.

[GregT]

Kenny - you’re a bike guy too?

I ride every day.

Seems like I’ve found it more often in Washington syrahs and you can’t really say that it is a cool climate area.

Scott - Washington is immense! And there are plenty of mountains. Some areas are a lot cooler than others.

[JoeD]

In this case - If loving Brett Infections is wrong, I don’t want to be right! Interesting posts GregT and JohnZ, thanks for sharing guys.

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Kenny H

@GregT

Yes we did. This is a much more pleasant topic than some recurring themes.

Not really. Isn’t it about time for another Parker thread? Can’t beat those for sheer entertainment value!

Jeff - 4-ethyl guaiacol, which you get with brett, in lower doses, can have a rather nice smell of smoked bacon. That would not be inconsistent with Mel’s note about barrels (see the current brett thread rather than repeat all that here).

Remember that what we perceive is greater than the simple sum of the parts. We synthesize all of the information rather than parse it out separately, which is why TNs often don’t make a lot of sense. So what we perceive will be heavily influenced on concentration, temperature, our physical condition, the presence and/or absence of other compounds, etc.

Anyhow, I like that aroma, whatever it is and wherever it’s from. I’ve picked it up in a few wines from CA as well as the afore-mentioned wines from Europe. Another one I love is the peppery note that some Syrah can exhibit, which is from a molecule called rotundone. It’s what makes black pepper smell and taste like well, black pepper. It’s not unique to Syrah by any means - I’ve found it frequently in Blaufranisch, Zin, Tempranillo, and Grenache and I’m sure it can appear in other wines. Never found it in Cab/Merlot wines for some reason and I’m not sure why. Anyhow, if you blend that with the smokey note and maybe some dark cherry notes, that’s a good wine by my standards!

Man crush.

More like NERD love! You techies ruin everything!

I will now need to refine my tasting notes:
“Poured at ambient temperature of 72 degrees, the object itself was measured at 64.35 degrees. Slight wind out of the Northeast. The colors were a prismatic range of reds from the wavelength of light, approximately 620-740 nm on the electromagnetic spectrum. Poured in to pre-chilled, 1000ml glass beaker with pouring lip. Aerated for approximately 35 minutes. The ethyl guaiacol was in full pungent bloom, reminiscent of a freshly-tilled, fertilized hydroponic garden. The rotudone was noted as “pronounced, causing a sneezing sensation” in the testing audience.” (93.5595 pts/100)






[Please don’t spank me when you two cycling studs take me out riding!]

[Karen_Troisi]

@Ken Zinns

@Jay Miller

@Scott E.

I am constantly on the search for these qualities in a syrah. Do you find that smoke and meat is also accompanied by that briny/saline olive touch too - yum!! I wish it was more common - seems like I’ve found it more often in Washington syrahs and you can’t really say that it is a cool climate area.

I think Kevin Harvey has said the olivey note is usually only found in syrahs that use stems. I love it too.

Not by any means only in Syrahs with stems. I’ve helped make Syrah in the past from Las Madres Vineyard in Carneros (quite a cool climate for Syrah), rarely used any whole clusters, and the wines almost always had a black olive character - sometimes it was very prominent.

Ken - Las Madres is a great example. We made syrah from Las Madres Vineyard in 2005 and 2006 (did not include stems) and both vintages displayed black olive notes (tapenade without the anchovies). 05 was more prominent than 06 but still evident in the nose.

[John_D_Zuccarino]

@jdabrowski1027

In this case - If loving Brett Infections is wrong, I don’t want to be right! Interesting posts GregT and JohnZ, thanks for sharing guys.

Brett is not a bad thing in my book… Pass me some bacon …

[Brian_Tuite]

@Ken Zinns

Not by any means only in Syrahs with stems. I’ve helped make Syrah in the past from Las Madres Vineyard in Carneros (quite a cool climate for Syrah), rarely used any whole clusters, and the wines almost always had a black olive character - sometimes it was very prominent.

+1,000
Las Madres signature aroma for me has been black olive and it seems to surface regardless of winemaker or style although the whole cluster varieties have been more intense.

[Kenny_H]

@Robert Alfert

More like NERD love! You techies ruin everything!

I will now need to refine my tasting notes:
“Poured at ambient temperature of 72 degrees, the object itself was measured at 64.35 degrees. Slight wind out of the Northeast. The colors were a prismatic range of reds from the wavelength of light, approximately 620-740 nm on the electromagnetic spectrum. Poured in to pre-chilled, 1000ml glass beaker with pouring lip. Aerated for approximately 35 minutes. The ethyl guaiacol was in full pungent bloom, reminiscent of a freshly-tilled, fertilized hydroponic garden. The rotudone was noted as “pronounced, causing a sneezing sensation” in the testing audience.” (93.5595 pts/100)

Hahahaha. Ruin? Hardly. That is your best note evar!

Spouting molecular O-chem as you swill impresses your friends, woos the ladies, and gets you street cred.

[Dave_McCloskey]

@jbray23

Where's the bacon? Has oak pushed the traditional aromas out of the N. Rhone? - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

This thread helps a lot…

Read every post and you’re right… helps a lot! Thanks for the link.