Southern Italy: please comment my choices on the "wine part" of the trip

Travel, Wine Tourism, and Restaurants Forum
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you probably want to look at cellartracker https://www.cellartracker.com/

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Hi Jiri
I agree with Klaus that Cellartracker is also of good benefit for this type of crowdsourced data analysis. Neither are perfect e.g. not everyone rates wines in the same way, but more importantly not everyone shares the same palate as you or I. For instance I rarely like Grenache / Garnaccia as a grape to make wine with, but others find it much more enjoyable. Hence the score alone isn’t useful to me.

No system will be perfect, but if it gives you confidence that you’ll be making informed choices, then go for it.

I’d base the choice between just 1 high scoring wine / lots scoring a little lower, on what you think you’re most likely to buy. If that high scoring wine costs €100, then it might be more than you want to pay (it is for me). If however it’s €30 and their other (lower scored) wines are ~ €10 each, then I’d view that as a chance to taste a wine I might want to buy to take home, plus a chance to identify some cheaper wines to look out for in local restaurants, or to buy a bottle or two to drink back at the apartment or on a picnic walk / longer train journey. Cheap isn’t bad, but it’s not the main focus of your buying to take home (and that was often the case for me when on holiday).

It’ s a great question about finding out which wineries are more focused on quality and which on commerce. On the whole I often think I have a subconscious feel by looking at websites / wine labels / experience so far, but that can be proven wrong. Visiting the winery gives a much clearer picture.

FWIW whenever I go to Italy and visit wineries, I set a much lower bar than finding the best / best subject to price constraints. Instead there are some basic criteria:

  • If it’s a nearby winery that I know I like the wines, then there’s a good chance I’ll seek to visit them
  • Logistics. This one is really important to us, as any opportunity to leave the car parked up and walk, will be gleefully taken. e.g. If there are 2-3 wineries in the same village we’re staying, we might either have a day tasting in the village. Alternatively we’ll arrange a single afternoon tasting in the village each day, allowing us to drive (or walk or cycle) and explore in the morning, have a good lunch (or a short sleep) and then walk to the afternoon tasting. For winery visits we need to drive to, I still like to aim for reasonably close together in the same morning or afternoon.
  • Reputable? In many cases I’ll already be aware of the winery, maybe even tasted some of the wines, but if not, this is when I’ll look to Cellartracker tasting notes, or one of two sources: Bibenda Wine, whose tastes aren’t widely different to mine (the better known Gambero Rosso diverged much more);plus Hugh Johnson’s pocket wine book, remarkably crammed with info and opinion. I don’t know who does the Italian section these days, but I did like the refresh it got when Ian d’Agata took over from Nicholas Belfrage. In both there will be surprising inclusions and omissions - that’s the way these guides are, but if taken as ‘a list of potentially interesting / enjoyable wines and wineries’, they can be very useful.
  • Wines made there. This is a two-pronged question: Are they the sort of wines / blends / grape varieties that appeal; plus (typically using their website) What’s their focus? Are they champions of a certain grape or blend, and (coming back to the original question) are they making ‘commercial’ wines, ‘fancy’ wines or (as many do) a balance from commercial up to truly artisanal. Also of interest here is any info they give on winemaking, especially noting when they use 225L barriques or larger oak botti for ageing, or age in steel (typically for wines to drink younger / fresher), or in the ‘history revived’ amphorae or similar much loved by natural / biodynamic producers.

I happily accept that these won’t be the ‘best’ producers, but I do want them to give an interesting insight into the region and its wines. I also like to include 1-2 gambles in as well, producers that aren’t necessarily in the critics’ lists, but whose website looks like they are serious in what they do, and where the (often limited) public tasting notes on Cellartracker sound encouraging. These little gambles often seem to pay off very well, of smaller, family run ventures where the wines are good, the welcome warm and hospitable and the value typically wonderfully good. Some examples in Northern Italy were Marco Mosconi (Valpolicella, with a stupendous Recioto); Miru (Ghemme, whose Vespolina is my favourite so far, but also made us feel so welcome, even as harvested grapes came in for crushing); Daviddi (Wonderful Vino Nobile di Montepulciano, with bargain priced late releases, and like Miru showed the genuine Italian hospitality that shines so brightly away from the mass tourist trail.

Regards
Ian

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One additional thought. You mentioned aglianico, and that many producers make a wine from it. It can be very interesting to taste the wines using that grape in the different regions, e.g. from Monte Vulture (Basilicata), Taurasi (Campania), Puglia (e.g. Rivera’s Cappellaccio). The differences can be very interesting indeed, but only worth pursuing if you like the forst 1-2 you try.

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Hi Ian,

you have a talent in writing “tasty” posts, and I don’t know whether it’s this or my desire to use asap all that useful information in practice, but I literally can wait when my trip to Italy finally happens. [dance-clap.gif] You should think of writing wine guides for newbies like me. [bow.gif]

Thank you for recommendations on the guides that you use yourself - I guess if this my trip is successful and I stay in this friendly club of wine lovers, I will make hunting new wines my hobby and of course “right” books will be a good support in my journey. And the suggestion to try different Aglianicos across the regions came to my mind as well, but you’re right - I need to try at least one first, as it seems to be a pretty complicated one (and also dry enough - which is not my favourite blend so far), but this thought came to my mind as well…

By the way, how common is it for wineries to have accomodation (at least somewhere close to their own location, e.g. friends of friends) - does it make sense to ask them about that, or is it better to just use AirB&B or Booking app and not bother them with this?

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Hi Jiri
If by ‘tasty’ you mean ‘long and boring’, then I agree [rofl.gif] [wink.gif]

I like Italy, I like Italian food, I like Italian wine, but most of all I like momentarily being part of the Italian culture and feel enthused when Italian hospitality welcomes me into it. I hope you experience that on your trip… and as you’re away from the mass tourist trail, I think that might well happen.

Wineries doing accommodation? Yes quite a number do it and we’ve stayed at a few of them e.g. Massimago in Mezzane di Sotto near Verona (very lovely grounds and swimming pool); Boasso in Serralunga d’Alba (one of the Barolo villages); Il Cavenago in Ghemme (though others make the wine, they just grow the grapes); plus others in Bubbio, Monforte d’Alba, La Morra, Asti and Santa Vittoria d’Alba. Just to mix it up, we also stayed in accommodation run by a very affable winemaker in the Maconnais in southern Burgundy,

Try the Agriturismo.it website which covers farmstays in Italy (there are other sites, but I’ve always liked that one). They’re typically more modern / well-equipped than you’d expect farmstays to be. In addition, keep an eye out for accommodation tabs on winery websites, as I suspect some may simply advertise there.

It certainly sorts you out for one tasting that you can walk to / from! However in addition, they can be very good at organising other tastings for you with others they know.

Regards
Ian

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Hi Ian,

thank you - I will try Agriturismo site and yes, looks like we’re similar in the approach to tourism in general: the chance to “dissolve” in local life and enjoy those small little things which differ one from mass tourists - that means a lot for me too. As I plan to spend 2-2.5 months there, and my route is for its 85% across non-tourist places, I surely have chances to meet exactly what I expect. :slight_smile: [cheers.gif]

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p.s. not for wine (they do have wine / winery listings but they’re a bit random), but rather for specialist food shops, I should recommend the Italian language ‘Golosario (di Paolo Massobrio)’ which you should be able to find in Italian bookshops on arrival, or order online if you are as enthused by specialist food shops as I am and want to prepare these as well.

The list is pretty exhaustive, very rarely missing an interesting shop, and only a small proportion disappoint. The symbology, addresses and photos mean it’s not necessary to speak Italian, but it does help get more insight from it. Also included are phone numbers, opening hours/days (closing days often in the text) and website

I find it very useful indeed because we mostly stay in apartments, but even if staying in hotels / B&B, they can be a good source of picnic items / artisanal produce to take home. For apartment stays, it helps ensure we have a rotating spread of food for light lunches, supper, breakfast.

Also useful, but for me, not for what it appears to be, is Fred Plotkins Italy for the gourmet traveller. It appears to be a listing of great food places (restaurants, shops etc) but I find it’s listings somewhat random and thin on the ground (the Golosario is massively more comprehensive). However for me it’s Plotkin’s writing that excels, in the mini biog’s he gives for each region, town or village listed. I use his book not for the specific recommendations, but instead to get a feel for possible bases / day trips and even for regions that might appeal for a holiday.

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Oh [thankyou.gif] ! But are these shops to buy ingredients for later DIY cooking (pasta, raw prawns,sauces, etc.), or rather they sell already cooked food?

'Cause while the idea of cooking myself is tempting to the certain extent (I like occasional cooking), but cooking smth you’ve never cooked before can spoil your first impression on the dish which hypothetically blush should be tasty if cooked by a local.
Besides, my schedule of moving from one point to another seems to be pretty tight and I’m not sure anything except light late supper will be manageable, 'cause I will be outside all the day long…

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Some are for home cooking e.g. fresh pasta shops (pastificio), and although I’ll note down butchers etc. it’s rare I’d cook anything that requires much more than heating up in the oven, boiling or frying. Often it’s simply a salad with 6-7 things in it, that changes composition throughout the week (topping up with different stuff every day or two), and that gets reduced down to near nothing at the end of our stay there.

One worth considering is shops labelled as ‘Gastronomia’, as these often have tasty prepared food that you simply reheat or eat cold. It’s often traditional / regional dishes as well
Alimentari come in all different styles, but are typically good at having a broad range of basics, but often with a very good deli counter.
Then there are specialists for olive oils, bread, cheese / dairy, cakes/biscuits etc.

For us, it works as a defence to over-eating, plus puts mealtimes on our schedule, not that of the restaurants or hotels. e.g. we might spend the evening in an enoteca, drinking glasses of different wines and maybe having a light bite to eat there, but nice to have something available when we get back to the apartment if hungry. On other evenings we might be tired and simply stay in, open a bottle of wine & a bottle of water, and graze some food on the balcony / patio / indoors

One thought about a busy schedule. You might find Southern Italy to run counter to that, as there is often a more relaxed approach. In particular, more than in the touristy areas, the traditional long lunchtime is commonly adhered to. Thus expect many places except restaurants / cafes / enoteche to close at ~12:30/1pm, re-opening ~3:30/4pm. Often when closing, they’ll pull the metal shutters down, so arriving at a town/village between 1-4pm can make it feel like a ghost town and somewhat uninviting, yet by 4:30pm it will probably be open and buzzing with the evening passeggiata, with families strolling around, catching up on gossip, parading babies etc. (I love this time of day / tradition)

Thus we tend to split our day into 4 chunks
~9-12:30 when shops, attractions, markets etc are open, a great time to do things & be busy
12:30-4 Either we’ll have a long lunch ourselves, or go somewhere that stays open throughout e.g. open air attractions. Or simply head back to the apartment, to grab a light bite, a nap and avoid the worst of the heat
4-8pm when shops & attractions re-open, which is often a more relaxed stroll around, generally including gelato
8pm → Either eating out, chilling in an enoteca, or back at the apartment

The key thing is that you’ll be constrained by this e.g. difficult to get a meal at 5pm, museums may be shut at 2pm etc. Hence good to plan around it to avoid frustration.

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Oh, that’s something that I will definitely use pretty often! I love to have an opportunity to eat something light on the open air, e.g. sandwith or some national sausage, etc. Noted, thank you! [cheers.gif]

[bold is mine] Yes, that’s another very valuable input! [thumbs-up.gif] I’ve heard that Southern European countries (Italy, Spain, etc.) have some specific timetable due to hot climate, but never had a chance to have to adapt to it (my only trip to Italy so far was a business one, so local colleagues were “managing” these local peculiarities). Did I understand you right, that during 4-8pm timeframe these are mainly attractions that are opened, while restaurants are vice versa - mainly closed (obviously, with some few exceptions) till ~8pm?

Thank you!

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Yes, or more specifically the ‘working day’ is more likely to be 9-1pm and 4-8pm (give or take half an hour). Meanwhile restaurants will be open c. 12:30 - 3:30pm. Markets often just have the morning slot. Schools often start / finish earlier. In major tourist areas museums may stay open throughout, but I’d expect the lunchtime closing through Southern Italy (check the sites to make sure)

Most places will still have a closing day and/or half day closure, sometimes specific to a shop / restaurant etc. but sometimes still common to the town. It’s one of the things I tend to prep in advance to avoid turning up somewhere and finding much of the place shut and shuttered.

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Thank you Ian, great! [bow.gif]

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Some excellent suggestions. I’m in Matera now having just left Campania. We had an amazing and utterly surprising lunch at a restaurant attached to the Magic Hotel 84030 ATENA LUCANA. The food was outstanding, the service was warm and efficient and the wine list was great and more than fairly priced. Because we were so well fed we hoped to get away with just some wine and a couple of bites for dinner at Dimora Ulmo in Matera but they require a full dinner with wine pairing. . However, right next door is a little wine bar called Fermento in the Matera cave style setting with cool blues and delightful service and a smallish but interesting wine list… They had a lovely 2013 Cerentino Aglianico del Vulture for 38 euros that overdelivered and the local olives and snacks that were complimentary were perfect. FERMENTO Via Pennino, 29, 75100 Matera is a great little find and was absurdly empty.

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Without trying to be a ‘shill,’ I must still point you to my company’s website for more info on Buscemi. The vines are old. Grenache is probably there due to the historical links to French owners. Mirella Buscemi is Alberto Graci’s wife, so they are both dedicated to preserving old vines and Etna terroir. While Alberto feels that Nerello Mascalese is the variety that will carry Etna wines, he’s not so focused on the variety that he would tear out good old vines of Nerello Capuccio or Grenache.
https://massanois.com/brand/buscemi/

I wholeheartedly agree with Ian, there are no hard and fast ‘rules,’ and trying to focus on monovarietal wines for some abstract reason rather than view the scope of the whole, especially in these special vineyards with old vines, doesn’t make much sense.