Telltale Signs of Watering Back?

[Robert.A.Jr]

@John Morris

@Adam Lee

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now.

Or perhaps like one of those underripe, brett-infested Loire reds.

Takes a big hairy Yak to like that crap!

[Jim_Anderson]

@Corey N.

@Adam Lee

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

Adam,

Is your way of watering back the norm? What do you do with the displaced juice? And why not simply add the pH adjusted water to the juice?

Not so funny story I heard from a grower friend…a well known/expensive Napa Cab label buys his fruit by the ton and they control pick dates. They got their pick from him at 40+ brix, so the grapes were raisins. You can see where this is headed…desiccated ripe fruit would require a huge water addition, but the fruit was cheap for the winery. Obviously, the winery isn’t following your formula.

I just add the acidified water in. At least in the past 4 vintages. Have not had any problems with concentration, tannin structure, etc. Generally here in Oregon I feel that the majority of our higher brix comes from natural dehydration due to hotter than normal temps. In a sense I am simply replacing the water that went away. Been more careful this year about additions as the heat was early and persistent this year but harvest was 80% in October.

In short, I think it simply a matter of technique and decision making but there isn’t a norm on how to do it other than the calculation for how much water to add.

[Jason_T]

@John Morris

@Adam Lee

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now.

Or perhaps like one of those underripe, brett-infested Loire reds.

One of those things sounds delicious. The other like a dude in need of some Irish Spring.

[T_Welch]

@Jason T

@John Morris

@Adam Lee

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now.

Or perhaps like one of those underripe, brett-infested Loire reds.

One of those things sounds delicious. The other like a dude in need of some Irish Spring.

Irish Spring is too spoofilated. I bet Adam is a Dr. Bronner’s guy.

[Oliver_McCrum]

@Brian Tuite

@Oliver McCrum

I thought the standard ‘96 point’ formula was to pick very late, add water so the fermentation can finish, then de-alcoholise to get the wine down to the ‘sweet spot’ of, say, 14.5%. So it’s water addition plus de-alcoholisation plus (presumably) acid addition. Actual winemakers should chime in here.

Yoy thought wrong.

Maybe oy did. Care to elaborate?

[Brian_Tuite]

@Oliver McCrum

@Brian Tuite

@Oliver McCrum

I thought the standard ‘96 point’ formula was to pick very late, add water so the fermentation can finish, then de-alcoholise to get the wine down to the ‘sweet spot’ of, say, 14.5%. So it’s water addition plus de-alcoholisation plus (presumably) acid addition. Actual winemakers should chime in here.

Yoy thought wrong.

Maybe oy did. Care to elaborate?

OK, I’m sure actual winemakers (no offense Adam) are insulted by your accusations and feel your statement does not deserve a thoughtful reply. Or quite simply, if it were that easy then everyone would be making 96 point wines.

[Wes_Barton]

@Jim Anderson

@Corey N.

@Adam Lee

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

Adam,

Is your way of watering back the norm? What do you do with the displaced juice? And why not simply add the pH adjusted water to the juice?

Not so funny story I heard from a grower friend…a well known/expensive Napa Cab label buys his fruit by the ton and they control pick dates. They got their pick from him at 40+ brix, so the grapes were raisins. You can see where this is headed…desiccated ripe fruit would require a huge water addition, but the fruit was cheap for the winery. Obviously, the winery isn’t following your formula.

I just add the acidified water in. At least in the past 4 vintages. Have not had any problems with concentration, tannin structure, etc. Generally here in Oregon I feel that the majority of our higher brix comes from natural dehydration due to hotter than normal temps. In a sense I am simply replacing the water that went away. Been more careful this year about additions as the heat was early and persistent this year but harvest was 80% in October.

In short, I think it simply a matter of technique and decision making but there isn’t a norm on how to do it other than the calculation for how much water to add.

I think that’s the literal definition of watering back - restoring lost water back to where it would’ve been without the dehydration. That’s a different situation than if the brix is higher than you want without corresponding dehydration. Both seem like a sensible means of making the best wine. Adam’s 10% max rule of thumb seems about right.

In a recent conversation with a friend, the guideline he learned from a mentor was to not add more volume than would be lost to evaporation in barrel. Meaning how long it would age in barrel was a factor in how much could be added, and conversely, a larger add would necessitate longer aging.

[Charles_Crnic]

@Brian Tuite

OK, I’m sure actual winemakers (no offense Adam) are insulted by your accusations and feel your statement does not deserve a thoughtful reply. Or quite simply, if it were that easy then everyone would be making 96 point wines.

I don’t know about the “96 point” formula, but what Oliver described is pretty common from what I’ve seen and heard. Hell, the machine used to strip alcohol is literally called a “sweet spotter” (it can also be used to remove other flaws.)

“Accusations” is an interesting choice of word. There is so much negative stigma around these modern winemaking techniques, even though they lead to consistently delicious - and desired - wines.

[Brian_Tuite]

@J Krauss

@Brian Tuite

OK, I’m sure actual winemakers (no offense Adam) are insulted by your accusations and feel your statement does not deserve a thoughtful reply. Or quite simply, if it were that easy then everyone would be making 96 point wines.

I don’t know about the “96 point” formula, but what Oliver described is pretty common from what I’ve seen and heard. Hell, the machine used to strip alcohol is literally called a “sweet spotter” (it can also be used to remove other flaws.)

“Accusations” is an interesting choice of word. There is so much negative stigma around these modern winemaking techniques, even though they lead to consistently delicious - and desired - wines.

It’s so easy to be a purist when you don’t have to do any of the work. As for choice of words I don’t think very hard on that most of the time. People who know me understand me. Others just need to get up to speed. Or not.

[David_Bu3ker]

Brian,

Are just stressed out and pissed off? It would be understandable.

That being said, you are the one who dropped the unripe grapes bomb. Care to own it and actually explain yourself, or is it more fun to just say that the rest of us are clueless?

[Tom_Gutting]

@Adam Lee

If anyone isn’t sure what “ripe” is – we haven’t had any hot water (and now today, no electricity) at our home since Monday — I am pretty sure I smell rather ripe now. LOL

Adam Lee

No, no … that’s TERROIR.

[David_Bu3ker]

Is Adam’s middle name “Brett”

[Brian_Tuite]

@D@vid Bu3ker

Brian,

Are just stressed out and pissed off? It would be understandable.

That being said, you are the one who dropped the unripe grapes bomb. Care to own it and actually explain yourself, or is it more fun to just say that the rest of us are clueless?

Bomb? I wrote: “Does it? Since they have a hard time getting grapes ripe in France many years due to the weather they have no choice but to pick under-ripe, or should I say far less ripe than California?”

Under-ripe - not optimal ripeness - far less ripe than California
Unripe - Green

You can pick it apart all you want to fit whatever agenda you have but I stand by my original words. Should I have swapped Burgundy for France I’m sure you can find examples of ripe Burgs too. It really doesn’t matter how you word things on WB if someone disagrees with you. They’ll find a way to skew the meaning in their favor.

Then Oliver chimes in with his ‘96 Point Formula’

Winemakers have to work with what the vintage gives them. It’s different every year. Everyone has their own methods of dealing with what comes up. Some years they need to do water adds, other years not. Winemakers don’t want to chime in. They have more important things to deal with.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Brian Tuite

@D@vid Bu3ker

@Brian Tuite

^ What he said ^

I’d rather have the brix too high and have to water back to adjust than have a wine that is under-ripe and insipid. Of course you’ll get a different response from France where they can legally add sugar. They can pick under-ripe and adjust up. We can’t.

But the sugar only adds alcohol, not flavor, so your “pick under-ripe” comment really makes no sense.

Does it? Since they have a hard time getting grapes ripe in France many years due to the weather they have no choice but to pick under-ripe, or should I say far less ripe than California?

Wow. What a defensive response to a legitimate question. Obviously, an inferiority complex. Frankly, your anti-France tirades are getting in the way of an interesting discussion. There was no comparison to French wines here EXCEPT from you.

[John_Morris]

@Brian Tuite

Bomb? I wrote: “Does it? Since they have a hard time getting grapes ripe in France many years due to the weather they have no choice but to pick under-ripe, or should I say far less ripe than California?”

Under-ripe - not optimal ripeness - far less ripe than California
Unripe - Green

Brian - It still sounds like you’re saying that French grapes are often underripe/not at optimal ripeness. That’s a judgment, and that’s what’s prompting the backlash. If you’re just saying just that French grapes are often less ripe than those in California, I don’t think there would be a quarrel. It’s the way you keep putting it.

But let’s move on… The issue of the methods and impact of watering back is really interesting and I, for one, am curious to know more about it.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Adam Lee

@Berry Crawford

Telltale Signs of Watering Back?

A ripeness to acid ratio that seems suspicious. Generally when grapes are picked very ripe they have high sugar and low acid. When you water back to lower the resulting alcohol you lower the acid ratio even more through dilution so more acid needs to be added.

Berry,

Generally, the way I’ve done it is to bleed off the appropriate amount of juice first, then add the water back (with the water adjusted to the same pH as the juice). That way you are just replacing the juice removed with water.

Adam Lee

Thanks for the technical responses. Why are you bleeding off juice? I always thought the idea was to add liquid, I did not realize there was a substitution of one type of liquid for another.

[Nick_Ellis]

This is an extreme example, but I remember reading somewhere that in 1947, the winemakers at Cheval Blanc had to throw blocks of ice into the fermentation vats to keep an already out of control fermentation from completely going off the rails. No idea how much ice was added, but I’ve never seen a tasting note that describes this wine as diluted.

[Brian_Tuite]

@Howard Cooper

@Brian Tuite

Does it? Since they have a hard time getting grapes ripe in France many years due to the weather they have no choice but to pick under-ripe, or should I say far less ripe than California?

Wow. What a defensive response to a legitimate question. Obviously, an inferiority complex. Frankly, your anti-France tirades are getting in the way of an interesting discussion. There was no comparison to French wines here EXCEPT from you.

Anti-France? Tirade?
Dude, get a grip.

[John_Morris]

@Howard Cooper

Thanks for the technical responses. Why are you bleeding off juice? I always thought the idea was to add liquid, I did not realize there was a substitution of one type of liquid for another.

I’m not Adam, but I think the idea is to bleed off juice early on, before there’s a lot of skin contact, so the juice is mostly sugar and acid, then replace that with pH-adjusted water to maintain the same acid level. That way you’re taking out just (or nearly only) sugar. Adding water later dilutes everything else in the wine. Adam said the goal was to keep the skin-to-juice ratio the same.

[Corey_N]

@Nick Ellis

This is an extreme example, but I remember reading somewhere that in 1947, the winemakers at Cheval Blanc had to throw blocks of ice into the fermentation vats to keep an already out of control fermentation from completely going off the rails. No idea how much ice was added, but I’ve never seen a tasting note that describes this wine as diluted.

Sounds like watering back the wine may have improved it.

Cheval Blanc 1947: ‘One of the greatest Bordeaux of all time’

‘It was hot and dry in 1947 and the harvest began on 15 September, which was a full 10 days before the usual start date. The grapes were extremely ripe and concentrated and the wine exhibits this sweet core of ripe black and red fruits which balances perfectly the 14.4 per cent alcohol and 3g/l of residual sugar. Tasters often compare the wine to a vintage port, such is the richness, concentration and ripeness of the fruit.