The Second Tier in Burgundy

WINE TALK
21

Gouges, Chevillon, Violot Guillemard and of course some of the good negoc wines (Jadot, Drouhin, Bouchard, Faiveley)

22

LOL

hope you’re not right…but… [snort.gif]

23

I think this is a perfectly reasonable question if you ignore the value judgment in tiering and just focus on price.

To whit: what red Burg producers would you recommend with 1ers in the $60-$125 range? Still hard to answer given stylistic variation, but it’s still reasonable, imho, for someone starting with Burgundy.

My answer:

  • first, ignore 2015. There are modest amounts of 1ers in this price range from back vintages like 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2007, 2011 that are quite good now and will let you sample some of the producers ‘pre-cellared.’ You might find some 2002 or 2005 as well but those are more popular vintages and so correspondingly pricier, and slow aging. Buy a few cases and drink them.

  • second, search for Bourgogne Rouge & Village wines from any of the last 10 years. Somewhat less available, prob because they are mostly drunk already. But they are representative of the producers in question and you can drink them now.

  • third, once you have found producers you like, buy 2012, 2013, and 2014. All solid but not blockbuster vintages and later this year there will be discounting as the '15s arrive.

Who do I like in this price range? Arnoux, Rion, Lucien Boillot, Chevillon, Bertheau, Gerard Mugneret, Meo-Camuzet (NSG), J. Drouhin, Jadot (select crus), Chandon de Briailles. There are many more as well.

24

Wait . . . you don’t? If I had a non-Rudy source selling DRC for $100 a pop you wouldn’t be interested? OK, I’ll note that for future reference

25

I have no idea about prices in the US … but most of what has been mentioned above is (I guess) way above 100/125 … (my estimate) …

Even Hudelot-Noellat asked 100,- for Les Suchots off domaine for the 2014 … [tease.gif]

On the other hand: do NOT think that a Mercurey, Maranges or Savigny-lès-Beaune is a match for a Cotes-de-Nuits Grand Cru … may it be as delicious as one said … it won´t have …, it can´t have the depth, complexity and finesse of a top-vineyard … (simply said)

26

Not that hard. Consolidated off-the-beaten-path Burgundy TNs - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

27

There are a number of good suggestions here, but before accumulating wines to age, just be sure you like the style. i think many of us in the pre-internet wine age bought wines with the anticipation that they would be great, only to find 15 years later that you really didn’t like the style or the wine-making. Back then it took quite a while to find your sweet spot producers. Nowdays it’s easier to locate aged bottles to try now and get a quicker feel. (the other problem is that styles evolve, sometimes drastically, so it can be a moving target.)

I agree with many on the list, but as an example of my statements above, I’ve learned that I don’t particularly like the Pousse de Or style (too muddy and modern/oaky), or the Faively style. Morot is a good source, but has had more oak than I would like. I wish I had know about this a lot earlier and bought far more d’Angerville, Lafarge, etc.

28

to me, there are four ways to get good values in Burgundy.

  1. The best and hardest way is to go to Burgundy a lot, get to know winemakers and get on their allocation lists. I know of a couple of people who do this (one good friend goes to Burgundy 3-4 times a year) and gets wonderful prices from top wineries. I cannot do this.

  2. MSD, Volnay and Beaune. I think wines from these villages, for the most part, tend to be underpriced at least at most wineries. Esp. Volnay. Not hard to get really good premier cru Volnays for 60-80.

  3. Find the young up and coming producers. This takes work but can be done. I remember when Bachelet and Mugneret-Gibourg were under the radar producers in the late 80s and early 90s. There are similar great producers that are not yet completely discovered. For example, I believe that Charles Van Canneyt is taking Hudelot-Noellat to another level in quality. I understand that young Max Cheurlin is taking Georges Noellat to much higher quality (I have only had two of his wines and they were quite young). For whites, the wines of PYCM are starting to go up in price and I am sure that in a few years current prices will seem like bargains. And, I love what Alex Moreaux is doing at Bernard Moreau (his Bourgogne Blanc in 2014 is outstanding). I am sure that there are a ton of other producers where young winemakers in their 20s and 30s are revolutionizing their estates. I was told by Lolo at La Dilettante last summer that he was very excited about the new producers he was seeing. We were there for lunch and were on our way out to an appointment when he said this so I did not really get names. But, I want to go there and find out.

  4. Read the thread I linked to and follow the recommendations.

29

[welldone.gif] Burgundy varies in style more than most wines and there are going to be a lot of highly rated wines you don’t like and lower rated wines you do like. Follow your tastes and not my tastes or the tastes of any wine writers. That is how I bought a lot of Truchot at a time when wine writers did not really like the wines. [Even later, look at the very low scores Allen Meadows gave his 2003s, which are truly fabulous today.]

30

There are no producers with holdings in csj that do not know how to make burgundy.

31

Yeah, maureen, that was probably a particularly bad off the cuff choice of vineyard, as, while csj has a number of producers, most all are fairly strong. But the idea is that most all of us are subject to the hope that the next unheard of producer who owns vines in a particular vineyard will be the next great bargain. I have a number of them sitting in my own cellar. (my latest is Patrick Hudelot–some sort of relative of the family who for some reason couldn’t release their wines until recently. I have LSG and a chambole–I think Charmes. Did anyone else go for this one?) Sometimes we’re lucky, but many times we aren’t. My point is that perhaps we’re better off going for a star from Santenay than hoping that someone’s LSG that you’ve never heard of will be the winner.

32

John,

If I listen to the people who are trying to sell me wine, EVERY producer in Marsannay is a Rising Star who will be unaffordable as soon as the rest of the world realizes what they’re doing. And St. Aubin and Fixin and Monthelie and Givry and Blagny…

33

I had great luck with Taupenot-Merme Charmes and Mazoyeres Chambertin.

Not cheap but can get them at around $100.

Delicious wines.

JF

34

1ers:
Chevillon Vaucrains, Cailles and LSG
Lafarge Chateau des Ducs, Chenes

GCs:
Esmonin Ruchottes, Mazy
Meo Clos de Vougeot
Mongeard-Mugneret Echezeaux, GE

35

+1 (or in other words I am a 100 points on this)

36

With the caveat that unlike Bordeaux, everyone’s price varies wildly in Burgundy, there are a number of good suggestions mentioned here.

I’d recommend Drouhin (some of the crus are in the price range) along with most of the big negociants.

For producers in the CdN, some that stick out to me include Ghislaine Barthod, Lamarche (quality is really improving - a good source of relatively reasonable CdN GC), and Hudelot Noellat. I like some of the NSG wines made by VR producers that can be picked up at a significant discount to their VR premier crus (Meo, Cathiard, Grivot). Many of the great NSG producers can get picked up in that price range.

On the CdB there are just so many good options in that price range.

37

Yet again, you are going to have to try things to find out what YOU like. Each recommended producer represents someone the poster thinks makes good wines. But, they are made in a variety of styles, with different drinking windows, etc. You keep looking for shortcuts, but beyond the list of producers that people recommend, there aren’t any. You are going to have to taste and make up your own mind.

The same is true in every wine region on planet earth. It is not the same thing drinking Ridge Montebello and drinking Cardinale. Which is better? You have to figure that out for yourself. I would very much prefer the Ridge, but there are a lot of people who feel the opposite.

I do not know of any person where I agree with all their preferences on wine producers and I do not know of anyone who agrees with all my preferences.

38

I opened a bottle of the 2014 a little while ago as a science experiment, since it had been years since I had tasted wine from the domaine. It was delicious.

39

I am not sure what it is about Noah’s posts that seem to push buttons here, but I think folks are being unfair to him (and I am not singling you out in particular Howard). He did not say (and I didn’t understand him to mean) that he was going to go out and fill his cellar with whatever people here recommended, or that he only wanted insider gems cheap. I understood him to ask, basically, for folks here to recommend things he should try precisely so he could decide for himself what he prefers.

There are a ton of producers out there. If I were to buy just one bottle of each cru, across vintages, to “see for myself” what I like, I would (a) spend a bloody fortune, mainly on wines that wouldn’t thrill me and (b) would have more wine than I could consume in a lifetime. I would have thought that asking the assembled here for help composing a list of places to start, that won’t bankrupt him, would be a wise head start on finding out what he does and does not like.

40

Jadot Beaune Clos des Ursules. It has gotten pricier, but I have never been disappointed by it.