Thoughts on stems / whole cluster...

Eric_Lundblad · November 23, 2018, 6:30pm

I agree…great discussion, all of it.

I suppose it makes sense the pH would rise (due to potassium) early…I was thinking that, possibly, alcohol would be required to extract sufficient stuff from the stems (i.e. late in the process), as it does with seeds. Too bad…I like my version better . Anyways, thanks for the excellent observations!

Marcus_Goodfellow · November 25, 2018, 7:54am

I quickly thought of Mr. Z when reading the original post and, on particular, David’s comments on Kutch Falstaff and Copain Kiser and stem inclusion.
While his tone, expressed in a direct and unabashed manner, was taken as harsh, I appreciate his point that, if stem inclusion is noticeable and prominent, then the wine is not balanced. I am simplifyng the premise, but there is an element with which I agree. With any particular wine, you might find the herbal, and crunchy element of stem inclusion enjoyable. (I understand some people also like green bean flavors in their wine.). Similarly, some enjoy a cherry cola note. Some like candied black fruits in their pinot. I think that if one element is so predominate, then the wine is not balanced. Still could be enjoyable. And still may be your preferred wine. And the various elements may come back into balance over time. If at any point one aspect sticks its head above the rest, then to me that is a detraction.

I appreciate that you use the words “then to me” in the last sentence. I feel differently. To me, if there is a point, any point, where a wine comes into harmony and produces an experience that is superlative, even if only at that one point, then that wine is worthy of my taking time to learn how to gauge when that experience may be obtained. DRC is a perfect example.

Robert.A.Jr · November 25, 2018, 11:44am

That is worthy of a signature line. I may steal it, assuming nobody else has already!

H_Wallace_Jr · November 25, 2018, 2:15pm

For all of our Mourvèdre, we’ve been 100% whole cluster 100% of the time. Anyone not doing that is just wrong…

Ian_Brand · November 26, 2018, 6:10pm

California winemaking is very dynamic, and while that is generally positive, there can be a pretty dramatic echo chamber effect in particular hot spots. We’re watching that happen in particular portions of the Sonoma community now vis-a-vis stems.
Our experience:
Grenache needs them.
Syrah and Mourvedre like them.
Pinot is site specific.
Cab Franc can benefit from a little bit.
There are better ways to make Cab Sauv.

Howard_Cooper · November 26, 2018, 6:49pm

I kind of like it when different winemakers are making different decisions on issues like this.

It indicates people are thinking and responding to the needs of their grapes and their vineyards and not just making wines based on a formula.
The market will have different types of wines that taste different and we can all choose what we like better. Wine should not be Coca Cola.

Thanks (esp. to the winemakers) for an interesting and honest discussion.

Jorgen_Lindstrom_Carlvik · November 27, 2018, 1:16pm

This is a well written thing on the subject by Andrew Jefford !

There were for sure some news here for me anyway; Jefford: Whole bunch fermentation is the new wine fashion - Decanter

Markus_S · November 27, 2018, 1:29pm

Stems are our friends
When we add them a lot
Except when they add flavors
That are friendly or not

Mark_Cochard · November 27, 2018, 6:46pm

I posted this link in the last discussion of whole cluster.
Winemakers interviewed include Jeremy Seysses, Taras Ochota, Pax Mahle and Mathieu Lapierre

Kurt_B_e_i_t_l_e_r · November 30, 2018, 8:59pm

Greetings Berserkers

With regard to stem-derived tannin, it’s my opinion that tannin can vary as much as flavor or aroma in wine.

Fruits range from cranberry to dried prune and similarly, tannin can run a spectrum from coarse to crisp, paste or velvet. Fine wines might have elements of all and express beauty by their unique (hopeful) synergy of pieces. To measure tannin by mere ‘quantity’ might be misguided.

For some years we made a Pinot Noir from a low-yielding/ small-berry vineyard that, when fully de-stemmed, gave abundant tannin [depth] yet left a ‘monolithic’ impression on the palate. In 2013 we trialed 30% WC with this fruit and discovered profound textural breadth and pleasant herbal complement. I credit the tannin variety in those stems for the wine’s heightened dimension and interest. It was a great lesson and has influenced our fermentations since.

All things wine are of course subjective, and I wouldn’t project my experience on others’. Grape variety, ripeness, terroir, tannin source (skins, seeds, stems, lees, cooperage?), maceration, etc. all have special influence and are what make our world of wine so fascinating. There’s a Shiraz for every Pete

Marcus_Goodfellow · December 1, 2018, 4:27am

For the win!

Honestly, we’re better off with well made wines in a wide range of expressions. I enjoy a range of wines from producers who make very different choices than I do, and it doesn’t really boil down to whose is better. Crowley, McKinlay, Walter Scott, and Belle Pente, and Evesham Wood are great producers all in a destemmed style(but still with many other differences too) and Cristom, Kelley Fox, and White Rose make fabulous wines with stems.

Tariq_K · December 1, 2018, 1:27pm

Slightly off-topic, but anyone else get a headache from stems/whole cluster PN? Wife and I had a bottle of a whole cluster 2016 PN last night and we both woke up with a somewhat weird headache.

It could have also been caused by a number of other factors (dehydration, low-grade cold, the fact that she made me watch the first half of Twilight last night) but does this ring a bell with anyone?

Mike_Evans · December 1, 2018, 4:21pm

A headache after watching part of Twilight definitely rings a bell. OTOH, I can’t recall any effects from drinking whole cluster wines, and I drink quite a few of them.

larry_schaffer · December 1, 2018, 4:22pm

Nope, I cannot imagine anything in whole clusters or stems that would lead to that directly. My educated guess is that it was something else. Cheers.

Mark_Cochard · December 4, 2018, 6:30pm

Haven’t read the article yet. From Wine Business Monthly’s digital edition. Article starts on page 40.
[urlhttps://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=getDigitalIssue&issueId=10578][/url]

Charlie_Carnes · December 4, 2018, 7:16pm

I’ve had quite a bit of trouble distinguishing stems/no stems in pinot (e.g. Fourrier destems but sometimes tastes green and stemmy to me). It was a subject that was brought up at dinner last night (mostly in the context of whether such a thing as “ripe stems” exists and whether it makes a difference if the stems are ripe or not). My proposal was to find good examples of pinots (Burgundy, but I suppose this could be extended to the new world as well) where we had solid technical information about stem inclusion and blind taste whether there were stems or not.

For Oregon, I would suggest:

Stems-Cristom, Goodfellow, Kelley Fox, and White Rose. I know both Cristom and Goodfellow(my wines) utilize stems every vintage. Stem “ripeness” is a complicated conversation that is both different for different regions and cellars. Stems lignify as the plant shuts down for winter. A more northerly region has a bigger shift in daylight to nightime hours as harvest approaches and often a significant shift downward in night time temps. The shift is important as a region with cool nights due to fog may retain natural acidity but not shift as the seasonal light change also changes. Then add in cellar choices-I don’t use any enzymes or cold soaks and, along with cool ferment temps, this helps me stay away from vegetal flavors in the wines. That said, it also drastically changes my fruit extraction…

Destemmed-Crowley(2014 is an exception), Westrey, J. Christopher, and Vincent(also I believe Belle Pente).

I read this the other day. Came back to it today. This is extremely helpful.

Paul_Gordon · December 5, 2018, 5:25am

Like Marcus I observe that stem lignification occurs as a vine is shutting down for the year. I also believe drier/rocky/marginal soils lead to more mature stems.

GregP · December 5, 2018, 6:03am

Most likely culprit is histamines from barrel oak, some people are more susceptible to them than others. My relative had a bad reaction to many reds, I suggested she switched to unoaked whites and she is fine since, could not find any decent reds with no new oak to recommend. Depends on cooper, some barrels are way more “aggressive” than others, some are gentler in this regard. Try less oaky wines and see if that improves things.

larry_schaffer · December 5, 2018, 6:21am

Those histamines certainly could be coming from the skins of red grapes as well, my friend. Or even during the fermentation process.

Eric_Lundblad · December 5, 2018, 6:45am

I agree with Paul’s comment. The complicated part is that stem lignification is on the long list of grape cluster factors/aspects, & each ripen at their independent own rate, and as they dang well please. The interesting part is that the order of the factors/aspects ripen first or last or somewhere in between is different each year in some interesting/notable way…like it’s a jigsaw puzzle (clarification: factors/aspects = stem ripeness, seeds, brix, a whole host of skin factors, etc). I agree about rocky/etc soils…I also think night time temps play a surprising role.