I opened the 2014 Thierry Germain Domaine des Roches Neuves Terres Chaudes Saumur Champigny today. I enjoyed the wine well enough – it’s one of the lower-end cuvees for Germain. However I concur with Tvrtko. It lacks typicity. The color is a deep garnet. The nose is black cherry confiture and a little sweet vanilla. It’s quite pleasant. There’s also a rocky/granite-like element which adds dimension. I sipped some without food and could just about discern a faint peep of the blue fruit and lavender florality that I found writ large in the Hureau (and which, I’m learning, may be a Saumur signature. Next step is to open a Rougeard and see if I can discern it there). That faint peep is quickly subsumed though within waves of ripe blackberry and black cherry. There’s maybe a very little green pepper discernible, but it’s quite muted. The whole is well balanced and there’s more than enough acid to carry the ripe fruit. At times it invoked a bojo from a warmer year, at others a modern-styled Chianti. Not a rebuy for me, though I’d have no hesitation ordering it off a restaurant list if I were stuck.
My sentiments exactly - a very decent quaff, relatively modern in profile, lacking typicity. I think the upper-end cuvées, especially the Franc de Pied, show much differently.
I’d love to try the Franc de Pied, Robert, and will keep an eye open for it.
A great thread, and it is good to see some of the less ‘trendy’ domaines getting a nod from some, especially Philippe Vatan at Château du Hureau. Like many in the Loire in the last 1-3 generations he took on a family domaine where the fruit was sold in bulk to the co-operative, and despite having no winemaking experience and no/little equipment he turned the domaine around. Even in recent vintages some of his better wines saw élevage entirely in steel, as he was unable to buy any barrels which are obviously expensive. Yet the wines can be fab.
There are too many points worthy of discussion for me to explore every one - I would end up sending people to sleep with a Cabernet Franc monologue - but here are a few thoughts that popped into my head.
It is a problem for many domaines I think, for them to exist in this appellation dominated by Clos Rougeard. There is a risk that their wines are disregarded as being a bit ‘ho hum’ in comparison. That’s a bit like not drinking any Margaux because they don’t live up to the quality of Ch. Palmer or Ch. Margaux. Which domaines you prefer (I rate Roches Neuves pretty highly, but based on the upper class cuvées more than the entry level wine which is really a bistro lunch-time wine) is a matter of personal choice, but there are some really excellent wines in the appellation. I personally also rate the wines of some other domaines very highly, although to be precise some more trendy domaines do far more good stuff with their white wines (e.g. Romain Guiberteau, who also works at Clos Rougeard by the way, and Antoine Foucault at Collier, who will be taking over at Clos Rougeard) which are absolutely top drawer IMO, than their reds, which are very good but which (like some other posters have said) I can find many examples of Bourgueil or Chinon I would drink in preference.
Vintages matter. I really like 2011. 2012 was a bit mean, having said that I liked the top red cuvées from Roches Neuves when I tasted them soon after release; I haven’t tasted them since. 2013 was a wash-out; it’s impossible to judge on a vintage like that. 2014 was fantastic for whites, very good for reds, but the more I taste I realise the acidity of 2014 which is great in the whites is a bit unbalanced in entry-level reds. Top reds, when I have tasted them, with more fruit and structure, can be great though. I prefer 2015 reds overall, but many local vignerons prefer their 2014s at the moment (I am trying to change their minds! ![[basic-smile.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/83717c74df9b0ce202453063bc4f11baf0ee6b8a.gif "smile"){kind=small}
).
Cabernet Franc ‘typicity’ I find to be a thorny issue. It is an aromatic, perfumed variety; I find violets, peonies, roses all typical. Yes, pencil shavings, graphite, and as it ages undergrowth, leather, spices etc as well. In youth the fruit can run the whole range, red through black, everything from rhubarb to black cherry, it depends on the ripeness. With good ripeness you see the teroir differences between sand/gravel/clay/limestone, and this is what really interests me about Loire Cab Franc (and most other varieties too to be honest). Vareital expression can also be significant; I recall a tasting with Thierry Germain in 2013 where the varietal purity of the wines of Roches Neuves was amazing, the wines the most convincing perfumed expression of Cabernet Franc I have ever encountered; they reminded me more of the aromatic profile of Ausone than your average bistro Cabernet Franc! What I don’t look for, as signs of typicity, are aromas of green/bell pepper, green herbaceous character, celery, celeriac and so on as there are all signs of high methoxypyrazine levels which is unripeness. It is OK if this is what you like about Loire reds, there are no rules, but its not really varietal typicity to my mind. It’s just grapes that haven’t seen enough sunshine.
Sorry for the long post. Like I said, great discussion.
Here are two other domaines to throw into the mix. Jean-Pierre Chevallier at Ch. de Villeneuve makes classically styled wines, his Le Grand Clos can be super, and a relatively new name on the scene Philippe Porché at Domaine Rocheville also makes a very complete range of wines of great typicity. Anyone know these?
Chris, brilliant post, thanks.
I know Chateau de Villeneuve reasonably well and I agree: I’d rate them ahead of anyone else but possibly Hureau (Clos Rougeard being a class apart). I simply like the style very, very much.
Also, I totally agree on Guiberteau and Collier doing a better job with their whites. I’ve long held this impression, but still haven’t figured out why that is the case. Better terroirs?
(Speaking of which, and given that it hasn’t been mentioned, it’d probably be fair to say that Philippe Vatan, too, makes a fabulous Chenin as well. As if there hasn’t been enough praise here already 
)
Historically, probably meaning pre-climate change in this case, “grapes that haven’t seen enough sunshine” might well be “typical” of some of these terroirs, given the latitude
Chris, thanks again for your thoughts and I suspect there’s no risk of putting anyone to sleep who has made it this far into the thread by discussing cab franc in detail.
As for typicity I don’t look for bell pepper and particularly green bell pepper as typical, though there is maybe something of a red bell pepper presence even in appropriately ripe cab franc to me, and it can merge with a more mineral note. So for me while a bit of green is not unwarranted, there is for my palate maybe a fine line between what is a mineral austerity that I want and if it crosses into green that is okay, if its not too dominant, but it isn’t what is expected in the wine. For instance, in Bordeaux wines that show their cab franc it seems to seldom be overtly green (makes sense, obvs, and I seldom drink truly off vintages which likely affects things) but still provides a pleasing crispness, highlights the graphite, etc. Again, just my impressions.
But speaking to what Katrina mentions, to me far worse in cab franc than greenness is when the wines are maybe too ripe and/or are over-oaked and become anonymous. Personally I’m not thinking as much of the Loire at this point, but more of domestic examples I’ve had where the wine may as well be a slightly poor cabernet sauvignon because it is too ripe, saw too much new oak, and doesn’t show flowers or berries and instead shows oak and toast and coffee and caramel, without the body of cabernet sauvignon that allows it to carry those flavors better IMO (even if that is not really what I want in cabernet sauvignon either I can at least understand the marriage with ripeness, toast and oak better than I can with cabernet franc).
Lastly, I’ve had no 2015 cabernet franc yet and very limited 2014s but my thought was that 2014 is better left alone for some time. Early examples seemed promising but difficult and my thought was to revisit later. I felt the same way about 2009 and 2010 early on, more so with 2010, and looking back I drank too many of those too young. Now, I still have quite a few, but would be happy to have more.
Kris,
In your opinion when did Rougeard pull away from the rest of the pack?
Two yrs ago I did a night of 96 and 97 Rougeard, Baudry, Breton and Hureau. No one preferred the Rougeard’s -mostly experienced drinkers of old Bordeaux. Baudry’s LCB and Breton’s Chinon Picasses were the 2 favorites. All the wines showed very well and the Bordeaux drinkers were quite impressed them.
mark
Thanks Chris for the information packed post! Great to have a run-down on recent vintages also. Rougeard’s 2012s should be hitting the market soon and I’m kind of on the fence given the vintage report and pricing as to whether to buy or not. But if 2013 is a washout… anyone know if the “two suns” thing obtains for Rougeard in either of those vintages?
As to typicity…if pressed to give a quick reductive summary I would have said “blackcurrants and graphite” for loire cab rather than necessarily green pepper. But your post (as well as my own recent explorations) is a good reminder of the wider range of expressions.
I haven’t tried Ch. de Villeneuve or Rocheville but will keep an eye out for them.
Short but pithy Jon Bonne article yesterday on newcomers and old hands making Loire Cab Franc. According to Bonne, Loire Cab Franc is “wandering back into fashion”. Some familiar and unfamiliar names mentioned. (Both happy and unhappy to see him calling out my bourgeuil budget favorite – Blot’s “Le Pied de La Butte”.)
I have the '13, but yet to crack. Tougher vintage, but love the Breton Franc de Pieds so interested to see how the Germain stacks up. Passed on an offer of the '15 Germain FdP the other day. Hard decision, but need to start drinking and stop buying!
Interesting comment. I’m not sure I agree with it, though.
IMHO, Cabernet Franc, ripe or not, has an herbal component too it, an herbaceousness that shows some shade of green. Of course, the more ripe the pick, the less the green. These characteristics are accentuated moreso in leaner years or earlier picks.
Perhaps my reference point is too narrow: Loire Cab Franc. The typicity of a Loire Cab Franc is interdepedent with its specific terroir and the cooler climate of the latitude of the region. Indeed, it seems that Cab Franc performs much better in cooler climates than its brethren, Cabernet Sauvignon. This is a grape built for leaner climates. It flourishes in Loire.
The herbaceousness, green streak, ash, pepper spice, earth tones, are the things that I postively seek in Cab Franc. Don’t mind a little brett, either. I drink very few Cab Francs from any other region or country, especially from California, but will note that I love Bordeaux cut with healthy dollops of Cab Franc. Really love the acidity, leafiness and the savory quality that it can add to a Bordeaux.
I do agree with all of your other notes, esepcially the range of fruit charateristics that this wonderful grape can express.
Lots of interesting replies, thanks. While I agree that the profile of Loire Cabernet Franc often tends towards herbaceousness, my point (perhaps a semantic one) is that I think it says more about the Loire’s climate than it does the variety. You can find the same tendency to greenness in other Loire varieties, including Cabernet Sauvignon and Côt (both related varieties, the first very cloesly related of course). You do get greenness in Bordeaux but much less often because of the climate, and when you do find it it tends to be more subtle. And you get it there in Cabernet Franc dominated wines (various vintages of Cheval Blanc over the years) and Cabernet Sauvignon dominated wines (e.g. 2009 Giscours is loaded with it, curious given the vintage, but the levels depend much more on exposure of grapes to the sun than to temperatures).
I agree with the comment that over-ripe cabernet Franc doesn’t appeal. Sometimes when in the Loire I go to dinners where people bring along non-Loire wines that might be of interest to the local winemakers. A year or two ago a Raats Cabernet Franc appeared at my table. Apparently this is a highly regarded South African estate but to me the wine justy tasted warm, shapeless and soupy, with no clarity of fruit and no freshness. Each to their own I guess! ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Just read the linked article by Jon Bonne. Very brave to recommend 2013 reds. I have encountered some attractive easy-drinking wines made with a very light touch in the cellar, but they are the exception rather than the rule. It is a vintage marked by firm acidities, lean textures and unripe tannins.
It should not surprise you that Sociando Mallet is one of my favorite Bordeaux estates. Ironically, it only has about 5% Cab Franc. Interesting that you flag the Giscours, which has become a modern estate (not over the top though), but oddly enough, produced a 2009 that really appealed to my palate because of its savory quality.
A year or two ago a Raats Cabernet Franc appeared at my table. Apparently this is a highly regarded South African estate but to me the wine justy tasted warm, shapeless and soupy, with no clarity of fruit and no freshness. >
I wonder which bottling you had. Raats makes some uber-cuvees that are spoofy and over-oaked, but its very basic Cab Franc is actually quite decent and a reasonable value at $30 USD.
Judging from your note, when I had this 4 years ago, I liked this more than you did.
Fast forward to yesterday, I was pleased by the nose (crunchy black fruit, anisette, citrus peel, crushed seashell, smoke, wild game, pepper, and tobacco). The palate was more thin and tart than I expected. I followed the wine for the next 4 hours and, overall, the wine trended in the right direction. It gained a bit of weight and sweetness to counterbalance its spine. Some sips were more complete – while others less so – and the wine vacillated between wanting to sleep and wanting to play.
The acidity will carry the wine for several more years, I believe. There is a smidge of tannin that could resolve and allow a bit more sweetness of fruit, but what really impressed me was the energy on the back half. Ultimately, that’s what made the wine satisfying. While it might always have that barely ripe, crunchy profile, it will never be sullen or overblown.
Maulevrier might be a better wine in 2012 up to this point, and I’d like to put them head to head in a few more years. I might also want to check out Memoires in 2014 to see what happens when a better vintage meets winemaker, as I think he did as best as he could in a troublesome year.
Greta note, Markus! Definitely grab the 2014, it’s really very good!
This is a very special vineyard with solid old vine of 110+ years. It’s sorta new to Theirry’s portfolio, looking forward to see him develop this cuvee over time.
Absolutely! I think that shows through. With such extreme swings in weather conditions from year to year, I think vine material and geography is even more critical now.
I just took delivery on a couple of bottles of the 2017. Is it a big waste to sample one now? Or do they tend to show well young (in decent vintages)?
Thanks for the notes.
Don’t have much experience with this wine, but the 2014 I had a year-and-a-half ago was seriously in need of 7 to 10 cellar years. Nothing bad , as it was just as good as being endorsed here. However, if I had more (which I wish), I won’t drink now.
Thanks, Ramon. I guess I should probably wait, as I often feel like I’m especially bad at making heads or tails of young wines when they’re highly structured.