Traditional vs. Modern Barolo / Barbaresco

[Julius_L]

I think of Gaja as at least leaning if not fully traditional for his Barolo and Barbaresco. Where he strikes out against tradition is in his single Cru bottlings, where his blendings of a little (5% or 6%) Barbera with Nebbiolo have made beautiful, approachable wines but as a result required the Langhe DOC designation.

[Gary_Ahearn]

Love the way you keep updating/tweeking the list Pat. It’s a keeper. Thanks.

[steve_goldun]

So have the sons moved entirely away from the small barriques?

All those barriques in the cellar are for the various projects are used for the Barbera, various Nebbiolo blends and at least two Chardonnay cuvees that I can remember. The couple of times I was able to taste with Aldo, the last being at least 10 years ago, he seemed to be politely dismissive of all of these wines, attributing them to his sons. I’m sure they experimented with Barolo in barrique like lots of producers but as far as I know, no barrique aged Barolo have ever been released here. I think Conterno’s modernist reputation stems from the use of roto fermenters which they’ve been using since the 90’s. I’ve tasted with Aldo’s son Giacomo who runs the cellar here and he wasn’t very specific about how exactly they use the rotos but the wines aren’t nearly as dark and extracted as those of someone like Giorgio Rivetti where the fermentations take less than a week nor as traditional to me as those of Cavallotto where the rotos are turned on a couple of times a day to manage the cap, as someone mentioned earlier. Either way, I had a bottle of 1989 Granbussia last week which was magnificent, really one of the great Barolos I’ve ever drunk along with the 1971, and I don’t think they’re making them like this anymore.

[Ian_Sutton]

@Daniel Mattisson

• Schiavenza

Was there just over a week ago. No small barrels, but interesting use of cement for fermentation. I don’t recall hearing the maceration period (we joined an Italian group’s tour of the winery in between courses in the restaurant!).

Taste-wise I’d suggest not full-traditional or full-modern, maybe leaning to traditional. Whatever, very good.

[david_li]

Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.

[John_Morris]

@steve goldun

So have the sons moved entirely away from the small barriques?

All those barriques in the cellar are for the various projects are used for the Barbera, various Nebbiolo blends and at least two Chardonnay cuvees that I can remember. The couple of times I was able to taste with Aldo, the last being at least 10 years ago, he seemed to be politely dismissive of all of these wines, attributing them to his sons. I’m sure they experimented with Barolo in barrique like lots of producers but as far as I know, no barrique aged Barolo have ever been released here. I think Conterno’s modernist reputation stems from the use of roto fermenters which they’ve been using since the 90’s. I’ve tasted with Aldo’s son Giacomo who runs the cellar here and he wasn’t very specific about how exactly they use the rotos but the wines aren’t nearly as dark and extracted as those of someone like Giorgio Rivetti where the fermentations take less than a week nor as traditional to me as those of Cavallotto where the rotos are turned on a couple of times a day to manage the cap, as someone mentioned earlier. Either way, I had a bottle of 1989 Granbussia last week which was magnificent, really one of the great Barolos I’ve ever drunk along with the 1971, and I don’t think they’re making them like this anymore.

No one disputes that the Conternos say that they don’t use barriques on the Barolos. The question is where the oaky flavors many of us have observed come from.

As for dark color, I understood that it was the barriques that fix the pigments and that why the modern wines tend to be darker. Are the rotofermenters supposed to play a part, too?

[Ken_V]

@david li

Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.

We had this event at Antonio’s back in 2010:

http://finewinegeek.com/tn/2010-10-09_NK_1990-Barolo/

[Ian_Sutton]

@Pat Burton

Some questions have arisen about the definitions of the categories in my OP. I had left them vague on purpose as I hoped the board would help to identify the collective thoughts on what makes nebbiolo traditional (e.g.). For myself, I was thinking:

Traditional: Wines aged in large botti, long maceration times (e.g. 30+ days), avoidance of new oak, with a resulting wine that is highly structured and requiring extending bottle aging to enter a drinking window.

Modern: Wines aged in barrels, new oak frequently used, shorter maceration times, riper fruit, resulting in wines that show a fair amount of fruit in the short to mid-term, even if extending bottle aging may result in a ‘better’ drinking experience. Basically, a clear divergence from traditional approaches that result in a wine that is approachable at an earlier age.

Worth also considering oak used: French being firmly modernist, Slavonian oak being firmly traditionalist. Confusingly there are some French oak Botti Grandi out there and I’ve seen tonneaux in both. I can’t recall a slavonian oak barrique, but someone must have tried it.

[david_li]

@Ken V

@david li

Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.

We had this event at Antonio’s back in 2010:

1990 Barolo (10/9/2010)

Thanks, Ken

What clue do you look for to pick out the modern barolo when it is matured. I can tell when served young from the softer tannin and more pronounced the red fruit note. Do they develop different second flavor after aging?

[Bill_Boykin]

@Ken V

@david li

Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.

We had this event at Antonio’s back in 2010:

1990 Barolo (10/9/2010)

Good memories,Ken…and enhanced by the appearance of the young Superman…

[Xavier_Lavoipierre]

@Ken V

@david li

Just curious if anyone has done a blind tasting to see if you can pick out the traditional vs the modern blindly after the wines are matured.

We had this event at Antonio’s back in 2010:

1990 Barolo (10/9/2010)

Ken, thanks for the notes and observations. I wasn’t aware that Teobaldo Cappellano eschewed points. I have yet to try a Cappellano (though I have a bottle on the way so I can begin to familiarize myself), but after reading his back label and your link on “no scores,” I’m instantly a fan!

[Pat_Burton]

@Ian Sutton

@Pat Burton

Some questions have arisen about the definitions of the categories in my OP. I had left them vague on purpose as I hoped the board would help to identify the collective thoughts on what makes nebbiolo traditional (e.g.). For myself, I was thinking:

Traditional: Wines aged in large botti, long maceration times (e.g. 30+ days), avoidance of new oak, with a resulting wine that is highly structured and requiring extending bottle aging to enter a drinking window.

Modern: Wines aged in barrels, new oak frequently used, shorter maceration times, riper fruit, resulting in wines that show a fair amount of fruit in the short to mid-term, even if extending bottle aging may result in a ‘better’ drinking experience. Basically, a clear divergence from traditional approaches that result in a wine that is approachable at an earlier age.

Worth also considering oak used: French being firmly modernist, Slavonian oak being firmly traditionalist. Confusingly there are some French oak Botti Grandi out there and I’ve seen tonneaux in both. I can’t recall a slavonian oak barrique, but someone must have tried it.

excellent point

[Pat_Burton]

@Ian Sutton

@Daniel Mattisson

• Schiavenza

Was there just over a week ago. No small barrels, but interesting use of cement for fermentation. I don’t recall hearing the maceration period (we joined an Italian group’s tour of the winery in between courses in the restaurant!).

Taste-wise I’d suggest not full-traditional or full-modern, maybe leaning to traditional. Whatever, very good.

According to their website, the Barolos ferment for 15-20 days at 25-30C with frequent racking. Two of them end up in Slavonian barrels of 20-40Hl. Bricco Cerretto, which is the one in cement is then placed in steel for one year followed by bottling.

[Ian_Sutton]

Pat
Many thanks for this - it was hard enough trying to keep up with full speed Italian, without missing the start.

It was a little spooky, after their winery being the first time I’d ever seen cement tanks for fermentation, we visited Franco Boasso / Gabutti a couple of days later, and I recognised the same design of cement tanks there as well!

regards
Ian

[John_Morris]

@Pat Burton

@Ian Sutton

@Daniel Mattisson

• Schiavenza

Was there just over a week ago. No small barrels, but interesting use of cement for fermentation. I don’t recall hearing the maceration period (we joined an Italian group’s tour of the winery in between courses in the restaurant!).

Taste-wise I’d suggest not full-traditional or full-modern, maybe leaning to traditional. Whatever, very good.

According to their website, the Barolos ferment for 15-20 days at 25-30C with frequent racking. Two of them end up in Slavonian barrels of 20-40Hl. Bricco Cerretto, which is the one in cement is then placed in steel for one year followed by bottling.

Interesting. That maceration is longer than the most extreme rotofermenting producers (7-10 days), but I think most of the more traditional producers keep the wine on the skins for 21 days at least, and often more like 30.

Also, I thought Barolo was required to spend 18 months in wood of some size. How can they age the Bricco Cerretto only in steel?

[Pat_Burton]

@John Morris

Interesting. That maceration is longer than the most extreme rotofermenting producers (7-10 days), but I think most of the more traditional producers keep the wine on the skins for 21 days at least, and often more like 30.

Also, I thought Barolo was required to spend 18 months in wood of some size. How can they age the Bricco Cerretto only in steel?

I am equally confused by that. They call it Barolo though… Azienda - Azienda Agricola Schiavenza - Vini e cucina di Langa

[Ian_Sutton]

I think they’ve got part of the Dolcetto ageing mixed into their English language version. Here’s the Italian version:

Vinificatione:
fermentazione in vasche di cemento vetrificato per 15-20 gg. a 25-30 °C
frequenti travasi

Affinamento:
in botti di rovere di Slavonia di medie dimensioni (30-40 hi) per 3 anni

i.e. 3 years in medium sized Slavonian oak botti and no steel

[Sanjay_Nandurkar]

@Pat Burton

@Sanjay Nandurkar

Just going from the updated Post #1 -I would suggest:
Fontanafredda as traditional

Sanjay, have you had any of the recent releases from here? Its been suggested to me that the style has been on the move towards modern since the ownership changed. Anyone else out there know?

No. Not tasted Fontanafredda recently. FWIW, in my past tastings I found his wine hard as nails without any allure so I have stopped looking for them. So cannot comment on stylistic changes that may have recently.

[Pat_Burton]

@Ian Sutton

I think they’ve got part of the Dolcetto ageing mixed into their English language version. Here’s the Italian version:

Vinificatione:
fermentazione in vasche di cemento vetrificato per 15-20 gg. a 25-30 °C
frequenti travasi

Affinamento:
in botti di rovere di Slavonia di medie dimensioni (30-40 hi) per 3 anni

i.e. 3 years in medium sized Slavonian oak botti and no steel

That makes far more sense.

[steve_goldun]

No one disputes that the Conternos say that they don’t use barriques on the Barolos. The question is where the oaky flavors many of us have observed come from.
As for dark color, I understood that it was the barriques that fix the pigments and that why the modern wines tend to be darker. Are the rotofermenters supposed to play a part, too?

I remember that slightly oaky smell in mid 90’s Conterno at a tasting at the winery around 2002 or so and was told that it was from new botti. I haven’t noticed it since but I really don’t drink much Conterno these days. I seem to remember that same thing at Giacosa in I think the 1996 vintage. I’m no oenologist but from everything I’ve ever heard about rotofermenters, micro-oxygenation etc., it’s oxygen that helps polymerize tannins and fix color and this early in the process seems to preserve it. New barriques are much more porous and help get the wine more air than a giant oak cask as well. I remember Dante Scaglione at Giacosa years ago explaining to me how they varnish their new botti to seal the pores and slow down this “breathing” process. Maybe a winemaker could weigh in here and clarify?