Value plays in St. Julien...

[Neal.Mollen]

My go to for St Julien has always been Leoville Barton and Leoville Poyferre. I’ve always found them to show well and reliable. Not sure about pricing now, but they have definitely always been below Ducr and LLC.

Leo B is a supreme value, if not a “value” wine. Leo Poy was long one of my very favorite wines, but they have moved aggressively to the modern end of the spectrum, and I no longer find them to my liking.

[Neal.Mollen]

I should caveat my statement about Beychevelle. I think the closest comp for Beychevelle in terms of quality in the appellation is Leoville Poyferre. Though they are very different stylisticallly.

Looking back, I see that 2019 futures for Beychevelle are priced at $71 versus $68 for LP. On that basis, Beychevelle is priced correctly, IMO. Still not a wine I would chase, but probably not bad value at that level.

Talbot at $46 on futures is terrible value. Saint Pierre, Lagrange, and Branaire Ducru are all better wines for less money.

At $70+, I would always lean to Leo B rather than Beychevelle.

[pnitze]

I should caveat my statement about Beychevelle. I think the closest comp for Beychevelle in terms of quality in the appellation is Leoville Poyferre. Though they are very different stylisticallly.

Looking back, I see that 2019 futures for Beychevelle are priced at $71 versus $68 for LP. On that basis, Beychevelle is priced correctly, IMO. Still not a wine I would chase, but probably not bad value at that level.

Talbot at $46 on futures is terrible value. Saint Pierre, Lagrange, and Branaire Ducru are all better wines for less money.

At $70+, I would always lean to Leo B rather than Beychevelle.

I agree.

[Nick_Ellis]

I’m not enamored with Bordeaux in general, but I have a soft spot for well aged Langoa Barton.

[Julian_Marshall]

Prices vary a lot from one country to another, but these would be my choices with value in mind:

Most will not agree, I suspect, but I find both these to be as good or better than Gloria and Clos du Marquis (and cheaper):

Du Glana - I get some most years - it costs me between 15 and 20€. I serve Du Glana to friends who have never tried a St. Julien before, to give them an idea of the taste before moving to other wines, but since 2000 I’ve been increasingly impressed by the improvements made. It used to be a bit rough around the edges, but since 00 I find it much classier and an excellent QPR which ages well. I haven’t tried any recent vintages yet, but for me this is a classic St. J.

Moulin Riche - if you like the Poyferré taste this is an excellent alternative for a lot less. Although from a separate vineyard, it was for many years LP’s second wine, with batches of vines from LP finding their way into the blend. Now it’s completely separate but it does taste very similar to LP and ages well for around 25 to 30€.

Moving up in quality:

Lagrange - I completely agree with the others - this is the best value in St. Julien by a country mile. It never perhaps reaches quite the same heights as the top wines, but it is never far off and costs a great deal less. Very consistent too. Over here at least, if you look around enough you can find it for 30 to 35€.

Moving up in price a bit more, I agree with Branaire and Langoa. If you like a bit more opulence, Saint Pierre is also a good bet. I have rediscovered Talbot in the last year, having dismissed it previously as a sort of cheaper caricature of Poyferré - the 00 and especially the 01 have been transformed by age into classic wines that offer great value, even buying them now.

Gruaud Larose - people love or hate it - I love it, always have. It’s precisely the inconsistency that I love - Gruaud is just as likely to do a perfect pirouette as it is to fall off stage, but even the failures are fun to drink. When it’s good, it’s remarkable. The inconsistency makes it great value at auction: from 40€ to 60€.

Leoville Barton - if Gruaud is a squadron of Polish lancers, Léoville Barton is a line of Grenadier Guards, indomitable and reliable. Remarkably consistent, classic taste and for the quality, excellent value at between 60 and 90€, depending on the vintage.

As for the others, whatever the recent improvements, I still think that Beychevelle is too expensive for a mid-table wine, Poyferré is a great alternative to Barton if you like the taste, Ducru and Las Cases are wonderful but far too expensive.

[J_D_o_v_e]

Lagrange is definitely in your wheelhouse. Why haven’t you been tasting them?

I really have no reasonable explanation. I’ve recently bought a few vintages, heck I found 2016 for $50. That’s a steal.

I struggle to pay that much for Lagrange. The 2000 was $27.99 on futures. The 2001 was about the same. It remains a $25-$30 wine in my head.

I’m guessing based on that response you’re not interested in Amazon stock then.

[David_Bu3ker]

Gruaud Larose - people love or hate it - I love it, always have. It’s precisely the inconsistency that I love - Gruaud is just as likely to do a perfect pirouette as it is to fall off stage, but even the failures are fun to drink. When it’s good, it’s remarkable.

This to me is what it means to love wine. Not everything has to be “great.” There’s something about watching it happen live, and living with the results. Reminds me a little of when I would go to see The Grateful Dead in concert. You could get blown away, or it could be a train wreck, but it was about the experience.

[Br1an_Th0rne]

Branaire Ducru for sure…if you’re looking to backfill with some mature vintages, the 2000 can be had for $90 all in at auction if you’re diligent / lucky; classic wine that is singing right now. For recent vintages, I think I paid $39 for the '19 futures.

[Julian_Marshall]

Gruaud Larose - people love or hate it - I love it, always have. It’s precisely the inconsistency that I love - Gruaud is just as likely to do a perfect pirouette as it is to fall off stage, but even the failures are fun to drink. When it’s good, it’s remarkable.

This to me is what it means to love wine. Not everything has to be “great.” There’s something about watching it happen live, and living with the results. Reminds me a little of when I would go to see The Grateful Dead in concert. You could get blown away, or it could be a train wreck, but it was about the experience.

Funny you mention the Grateful Dead - there is a château close to here where they gave a free concert in 1971:

Grateful Dead 6-21-71 Chateau d'Herouville Herouville France

As for Gruaud, I agree - I’ve never not enjoyed it anyway, whatever the vintage - and I’ve tasted them all since 1975.

[M_Meer]

Further, other Bordeaux appalations like Margaux and St Esteph may have more price/quality wines to consider like Siran, Labegorce, Les Orme de Pez, Capburn and Meyney - all in the $25-$30 price range. Hey, won’t be too long before the 2020 Bordeaux are offered.

Yep, not much to add to the thread. All the names have been suggested because the appellation has so few chateaux in comparison. They are all high quality, however, imo. I also like the St. Estephe suggestion for value plays.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Despite significant price increases over the past 10 years, give or take a couple, I still think Leoville Barton is the play here. IMO, it would be reasonably priced at $200.

[Howard_Cooper]

Croix de Beaucaillou is made by the people who make Ducru and Clos de Marquis is made by the people who make LLC. You might try them.

[James_Billy]

Prices vary a lot from one country to another, but these would be my choices with value in mind:

Most will not agree, I suspect, but I find both these to be as good or better than Gloria and Clos du Marquis (and cheaper):

Du Glana - I get some most years - it costs me between 15 and 20€. I serve Du Glana to friends who have never tried a St. Julien before, to give them an idea of the taste before moving to other wines, but since 2000 I’ve been increasingly impressed by the improvements made. It used to be a bit rough around the edges, but since 00 I find it much classier and an excellent QPR which ages well. I haven’t tried any recent vintages yet, but for me this is a classic St. J.

Moulin Riche - if you like the Poyferré taste this is an excellent alternative for a lot less. Although from a separate vineyard, it was for many years LP’s second wine, with batches of vines from LP finding their way into the blend. Now it’s completely separate but it does taste very similar to LP and ages well for around 25 to 30€.

Moving up in quality:

Lagrange - I completely agree with the others - this is the best value in St. Julien by a country mile. It never perhaps reaches quite the same heights as the top wines, but it is never far off and costs a great deal less. Very consistent too. Over here at least, if you look around enough you can find it for 30 to 35€.

Moving up in price a bit more, I agree with Branaire and Langoa. If you like a bit more opulence, Saint Pierre is also a good bet. I have rediscovered Talbot in the last year, having dismissed it previously as a sort of cheaper caricature of Poyferré - the 00 and especially the 01 have been transformed by age into classic wines that offer great value, even buying them now.

Gruaud Larose - people love or hate it - I love it, always have. It’s precisely the inconsistency that I love - Gruaud is just as likely to do a perfect pirouette as it is to fall off stage, but even the failures are fun to drink. When it’s good, it’s remarkable. The inconsistency makes it great value at auction: from 40€ to 60€.

Leoville Barton - if Gruaud is a squadron of Polish lancers, Léoville Barton is a line of Grenadier Guards, indomitable and reliable. Remarkably consistent, classic taste and for the quality, excellent value at between 60 and 90€, depending on the vintage.

As for the others, whatever the recent improvements, I still think that Beychevelle is too expensive for a mid-table wine, Poyferré is a great alternative to Barton if you like the taste, Ducru and Las Cases are wonderful but far too expensive.

Our man in Paris. Scouring the French supermarkets to find the very best value.

Do you ever do comparisons between the various unknown (outside of France) big negociants (ie. not the likes of Jadot, etc,) AOC cuvvees from the hypermarkets to identify ridiculous QPR bottles? Lining up, say, 10 $6 Chinons? I’m sure at least one or two would be delicious.

[Julian_Marshall]

Thanks James, that’s very kind of you!

I do taste a lot of 6€ Chinons and other Loire reds - they don’t normally come from négociants, but smaller producers and often caves coopératives, of which there are several good ones in the Loire. It’s a good idea, I’ll start a discussion in another thread about them.

[James_Billy]

Great. I meant caves coopératives. I tend to mix the 2 up for no logical reason!

Looking forward to reading your thread.

[Robert_Sand]

Strange that nobody mentions St.Pierre …
there were some excellent vintages (1985 …)

[Arv_R]

@Julian_Marshall

Prices vary a lot from one country to another, but these would be my choices with value in mind:

Most will not agree, I suspect, but I find both these to be as good or better than Gloria and Clos du Marquis (and cheaper):

Du Glana - I get some most years - it costs me between 15 and 20€. I serve Du Glana to friends who have never tried a St. Julien before, to give them an idea of the taste before moving to other wines, but since 2000 I’ve been increasingly impressed by the improvements made. It used to be a bit rough around the edges, but since 00 I find it much classier and an excellent QPR which ages well. I haven’t tried any recent vintages yet, but for me this is a classic St. J.

I haven’t had this property since - I think - the 1996 vintage but have had the 2015 a few times in the last couple of months. For my tastes the 2015 du Glana [St Julien] is a good example of a cabernet tilted Medoc. There is some mulberry and tomato leaves on the nose, then red fruit on the palate. It’s medium bodied, and still has slight tannin left at age 8. The label states 14% abv, but it does not feel unbalanced. It’s a likable wine and it will be serving as the chef’s pour (cooking and drinking!) while we have it. Conventionally sealed, no sediment yet. In the last few years, this has become more available in my region; previously I never saw it on shelves – Gloria tends to crowd out the competition in the marketplace for fruity, unclassified St Juliens. From my understanding production quantities are similar between the two estates, so I wonder where all the du Glana gets sold. This sits somewhere in the B to B+ zone on my scorecard.

[Julian_Marshall]

Thanks Arv - glad that the 2015 is looking good - I haven’t tried mine yet. My last was the 05 which was really good.

[William_Kelley]

It’s just outside Saint-Julien, but one could say somewhat Saint-Julien in style, and costs next to nothing: Château du Moulin Rouge.

[heiko.s]

Thanks for your tip. As the ratings on CT are not that enthusiastic, which vintages would you recommend? thx