Valuing Ageability

Good questions Mike, I’ll bite.

  1. What value do you ascribe to perceived ageability in any wine you uncork and try?
    - The ability to improve and develop positive characteristics not present on release is one of wine’s great mysteries and great strengths. I generally like wines with some aromatic and flavor development. This is true for whites and reds. Some wines I buy to drink this year (rose, beaujolais, blousy CA chards for my wife) and some wines are bought to hold. Obviously for the latter, age-ability must be a greater portion of the wine’s inherent value. I also backfill a fair amount of older wines now.

  2. Do you consciously assess ageability as part of your overall assessment of the majority of what you consume?
    - If I’m tasting a wine (most any wine), the thought will cross my mind, “what will this taste like in the future?” The ability to predict this accurately depends on developing a large rolodex of tasting experiences. I don’t think it’s so random as GregT, but agree it does take many years of tasting a variety of wines from different regions across various points in their evolution to be even the least bit helpful with this. I am a very short way into this journey and am still developing my framework for assessment.

  3. If you do ascribe value to ageability, how much value do you ascribe to it as part of your overall impression?
    - it depends on the particular wine and its purpose. Both the producer’s purpose for it (“drink this while your grand vin ages”) and mine. You can’t fault a young, fresh wine for being what it is. I’ve said elsewhere I’m not long on a couple of Pax’s wines like Sonoma Hillsides or the Valdigue. But I love them for what they are and buy them to consume in the next year. If I’m at a tasting and a wine strikes me as a long ager, say it has firm structure and concentrated fruit with good balancing elements, I’ll note as much. Ability to age is generally a positive trait, and probably ought to correlate somewhat with price.

  4. Do you value it differently depending on the locale of the wine, the producer of the wine, or the variety of the grape?
    - track record of the producer is the best predictor I think we have. There are too many other variables to gain much from locale/variety. Just because old Dunn is fantastic with age doesn’t mean every Howell Mtn cab will be. On paper, Musar shouldn’t necessarily be the best candidate for aging, but it is among the world’s greats. Also, I think vintage is next in importance behind producer, although I’m often surprised by wines from “lesser” vintages.

  5. Do you value it differently than you did 5 or 10 years ago?
    - It is significantly more important to me than it was 5 years ago, but I’m 35 and have a lot of enthusiasm for this as a lifelong hobby/enjoyment. 10 years ago I was drinking beer.

After a few years of buying and drinking wine, I have found that I like wine with age.

  1. What value do you ascribe to perceived ageability in any wine you uncork and try?
    I refuse to open my big reds before 10 years from label date. I like the 12-15 year range for the Napa cabs that I primarily purchase knowing that several can go much longer.

  2. Do you consciously assess ageability as part of your overall assessment of the majority of what you consume?
    No, because the bulk of my wine is young and is not getting consumed yet.

  3. If you do ascribe value to ageability, how much value do you ascribe to it as part of your overall impression?
    Of the older vintages I have had, I have been impressed with how wine can evolve with time in the bottle and then once again in the glass.

  4. Do you value it differently depending on the locale of the wine, the producer of the wine, or the variety of the grape?
    Sure. I drink zinfandel young and I wait patiently for my cabernet to age. I have been buying older vintages in small groupings so I can have some bigger reds to drink as I age the bulk of my newer collection.

  5. Do you value it differently than you did 5 or 10 years ago?
    Yes, with the only difference being I will be more patient to wait for my wine to age knowing wine can age longer that my previous experiences showed me.

To me wine is never just a score, numbers need to be augmented by at least a few words. As to the weight given in a numeric score to presumed age ability that surely depends on type of wine and expectations, and of course where the wine is in its evolution. (Think of top Bordeaux tasted at say four, eight or twenty years ). Which I think is what people here are saying.

Great set of questions. One thing I really like about the Broadbent 5 star scale, which is what I have used for about 20 years now after using the 100 point scale for the first few years of my serious tasting and documenting of tasting notes, is that it accommodates the notion of ageability/future performance in a way the 100 point scale cannot.

For example, if I say (****), then I think the wine has 5 star potential but is showing little of that full potential now. () might mean that the wine is starting to unfurl or it could be granted at release because the wine is showing more openly than usual or expected in youth. And then, hopefully, at full maturity I can say *****. At all points, I consider such a wine of the highest potential (meaning 5 stars)- in the second example I do not mean to imply the wine is giving a ** performance (which would be quite poor), but rather that it is showing a certain portion of itself openly. The brackets and maturity estimates give a sense of where a wine is on the aging curve, but the number of stars tell the tale of overall expected potential.

Expectations, and also the use of the brackets, will vary enormously depending on the wine being evaluated. Most top Bordeaux and Burgundy from “great” vintages are likely to have all their stars in brackets when I first taste the wine. This is based on years of experience with younger and older wines- plus now being of an age where I have been able to observe specific wines periodically as they age for 20+ years. Conversely, when tasting something like Vega Sicilia or Penfold’s Grange young- even if I give 5 stars I am almost certain to have most of the stars outside of the brackets because these wines will mellow with age and show some additional development, but already show much of what they have to offer at release.

And this brings me to a key point- age means change, but that could be significant change, moderate change or a mere settling and mellowing of the elements. There is also the caveat that age means risk- whether the elements age to some glorious and harmonious junction, or go out of balance. Provenance. Ullage, And all sorts of little unknowns that can affect a few glasses of grape juice sitting in a corked bottle for years or decades.

For my part, the ideal outcome is something like 2001 red burgundy. Gorgeous wines at release that showed much promise and aged very quickly- showing the delights that normally take 20+ years to emerge by age 10 in many cases. Shorter wait, less risk. I have had many a chuckle over the occasion post or comment worrying about 2001 reds aging too quickly. That is a dream come true scenario.

I say all this to make the point that the concept of age- to me anyway- has no absolute or objective value in and of itself. It exists within the context of the wine and the vintage, and becomes valuable to the extent which it is required for a wine to show at its best. And of course when a wine is at its best is also somewhat subjective based on the taster- but I think fairly objective when it comes to making an honest and educated evaluation of what is front of you. It is perfectly fine to say you like to drink La Tache young (and there is much joy in that), but it is an absolute truth that in virtually any vintage it will be showing far more development and subtlety at age 20 than at release. Though at age 20 it will have also lost some of that youthful excitement that makes it just as unique an experience at release as at full maturity.

And age, or the need for age, can also be a detriment. Some lament the changes at Chateau Ausone and wonder whether or not the current regime will produce wines that can perform like the great run of vintages they had in the 1910s and 1920s. It could well be that something is lost in the change- but who in today’s market is going to buy a wine that needs 50+ years to mature? Such wines had their time in an era when buyers of great wine were few in number, extremely wealthy, and laid down wines for their grandchildren as they drank the wines their grandfathers laid down for them.

With that said, to answer your questions directly,

  1. What value do you ascribe to perceived ageability in any wine you uncork and try?

None- but I do take into account whether the wine has sufficient structure and the proper balance to age to the point when it can deliver at its best. For me ageworthiness in and of itself only has meaning to the extent it will allow a wine to develop the full potential forecast in the total number of stars I give a wine. For something like 1992 Mouton, ageworthiness was of little importance in the evaluation of the wine since it was clearly destined to be consumed young (and it was a lovely wine in its day.) The 1998, on the other hand, is a monster of a wine and my five star rating was heavily dependent on the expectation that the wine has the balance of elements and structure necessary for it to show at its harmonious best in the distant future. That wine needed far more time than the 1992 to get to its best, and so the aspects of it that demonstrated ageworthiness were more important- but only in the context of anticipating a point in time when the wine would be an exemplary bottle of Mouton at full maturity, and only because that point in time was going to take far longer to reach than the 1992 was going to require to show its best. 1998 Mouton is a greater wine than the 1992 because of the breadth and complexity of the core fruit it presented- the question of when and where to drink either vintage is another matter entirely. There were certainly occasions 10-15 years ago when the 1992 would have been a more appropriate beverage in a given setting.

  1. Do you consciously assess ageability as part of your overall assessment of the majority of what you consume?

Yes- but after 25 years of serious tasting it is a more instinctive process now. Over the years I have paid it a great deal of attention though. I deliberately put predictions in my TNs so that I may look back at them later and learn from them. Those predictions have been the most valuable part of my self-education in wine tasting.

  1. If you do ascribe value to ageability, how much value do you ascribe to it as part of your overall impression?

Zero absolute value in and of itself- but potentially of great value within the context of the wine as a whole. 1984 and 1994 are great examples of Bordeaux vintages where there is sufficient structure to allow the wines to age for decades and remain structurally balanced (meaning that while they are hard they are not maderising or showing shrill acidity)- but the fruit was not there to go the distance with the structure. The wines are still useful and interesting at the top levels for very specific purposes, but they are not great wines. Ageability alone is meaningless unless the fruit is there and in proper balance with the other elements to justify waiting for decades before pulling a cork.

  1. Do you value it differently depending on the locale of the wine, the producer of the wine, or the variety of the grape?

Absolutely- it always exists and matters within the context of grape, producer and vintage- in that order most of the time.

  1. Do you value it differently than you did 5 or 10 years ago?

Objectively- no real change. In terms of personal consumption and whether I want to buy a wine for future enjoyment, it matters a great deal now since at age 46 I do not need to be buying Bordeaux vintages like 2016 or 2018 for the cellar.

While I think there is something romantic about wine’s ability to evolve and often improve with age and while I often like wines with some age versus younger wine, ageability isn’t necessarily something I need to love a wine or rate it very highly. When I rate / form an opinion on how much I like a wine, I’m doing so solely based on how much I enjoy it at the moment I drink it (which may be affected by how the wine has aged, but not by how I or others perceive its ability to age in the future). However, if I think a wine will improve with age, I will record that in my notes and I very much take ageability into account when deciding what to collect and when to drink certain wines. So, while perceived ageability does not affect how much I enjoy drinking a wine or what rating I ascribe to a wine, I do value perceived ageability when acquiring bottles for my collection and/or for specific purposes (e.g., wines for my anniversary).

Thanks all for your added responses, especially yours, Tom. I want to think about that and then maybe pop back on with response comments, but love your detailed train of thought on the subject.

1) What value do you ascribe to perceived ageability in any wine you uncork and try?
A lot. But what is ageability? To me it means the magical ability to transform over time into a wonderful mix of complex aromas and tastes that are very different than what was put into the bottle. The transformation from secondary to tertiary as classically defined. Ageability to me is not simply the ability to last. Most of my peak wine experiences have been with well-aged wines demonstrating that magical terrific complexity. Others may find the same wines tired, lacking enough fresh fruit, or over the hill.

2) Do you consciously assess ageability as part of your overall assessment of the majority of what you consume?
I try, but I’m not that good at it. Past experience with earlier vintages of the same wine are often more reliable indicators than my limited ability to foresee the future of a young wine tasted blind.

3) If you do ascribe value to ageability, how much value do you ascribe to it as part of your overall impression?
I can also be thrilled by young, powerful, rich, lush and layered wines and those along a spectrum, so I can’t put a dollar amount or percentage on it. But aged complexity is the vinous ne plus ultra for me. I use broad categories for ratings (outstanding, excellent, very good, etc.) rather than numbers. I rate a wine on a poorly defined mix of how it’s drinking now and what I expect of it, and try to comment in the note regarding where it is now and where I think it’s headed based on the balance between the fruit, tannin, and acid (and alcohol!).

4) Do you value it differently depending on the locale of the wine, the producer of the wine, or the variety of the grape?
Expectations differ based on historical performance. Broadly speaking, ageability is more important in a Bordeaux than a Napa cab. More narrowly focused, ageability is more important in a Palmer than a Siran, an Haut Bailly or Haut Brion than a Rochemorin, a Ridge Monte Bello than a Shafer.

5) Do you value it differently than you did 5 or 10 years ago?
I’ve been at this for about 40 years. It took 10 years or so to discover what ageability meant to me. My palate preferences have shifted some since then and I’ve learned more about what will and won’t age to my liking, but the importance of ageability hasn’t changed.

great answers, thanks David. “flawed poll” :slight_smile: 1) yes, that is the concept that I was after, rather than “will it still have life”. 3) I think we’re on the same track—my thinking here was to ascribe the “potential to be even greater down the road” concept of ageability into an assessment.

From a practical perspective, Mike, I tend to buy more bottles of wines I expect to “be even greater down the road” and become favorites. I clearly value those more in terms of how many I’ll buy. That often but not always correlates with cost per bottle.

The (probably obvious) reason I buy more agers is that I want to have enough to sample them as they begin to develop complexity and still have enough to enjoy at peak. CT and WB are good guides to maturity but reading TNs isn’t as reliable as tasting for myself. I don’t need as many bottles of the wines I plan to drink for their youthful exuberance.

Same here. I try not to drink too many young wines, because I like older wines best. So I don’t “value” ageability at all when drinking and scoring brand new wines because I don’t score wines and don’t generally drink young ones that are meant to age, and when I do, I’m interested in how enjoyable they are that night. I value ageability a lot when buying new release wines because for the most part I’m spending the most money on wines that based on my experiences, preferences, and the notes of others in whom I have faith, will not only age but improve and taste like the great old wines I love, when they get to be old.

More than fair. My first Bordeaux futures plunge (and ended up being my biggest other than 2001 Sauternes), I bought 3-bottle lots of 6 different wines. I opened the first set around 3 years out soon after they arrived. Next set was opened in and around 2008. I am flighting the last bottles next year at my cellar depressurization event. One can argue that I should wait another 10 years to do that, but patience is something I am in short supply of :slight_smile: And honest personal? I do want to still enjoy the wines rather than be intellectually stimulated by them. I think/hope I will still get value out of seeing where these wines are at 22 years vs. when I tasted them at 10 years out.

Mike

1) What value do you ascribe to perceived ageability in any wine you uncork and try?
As a general condition, not much. If age is necessary for a wine to achieve some degree of complexity/interest, then obviously that changes. If a wine is delicious upon release, then it’s fine by me. The one thing that is critical is that I own a ton of wine. So I rarely buy anything that can’t at least “hold its deliciousness” for several years. That skews things, but it’s a different kind of calculus than directly valuing ageability in and of itself.

2) Do you consciously assess ageability as part of your overall assessment of the majority of what you consume?
I do for the vast majority of wines that I own, or that I think many people other people may own. I am either making that note for my own purposes, or trying to provide a helpful data point for the community. Given the wines I drink, it is more than likely that someone wants to know if it will be as good, better or worse after five more years in the cellar.

3) If you do ascribe value to ageability, how much value do you ascribe to it as part of your overall impression?
This is mostly not applicable, and not just because of my answer to question number one. There are deliciously ageable wines that can be purchased for around $30, or even less. Yes, first growth Bordeaux are supremely ageable, but I don’t see a reason to pay hundreds of extra dollars just for that. Chateau Petrus is very ageable, but I would buy it (if I had the right kind of bank account) because it’s so distinctive in style and flavor, not specifically because of its ageability. Petrus would be just as special to me if it tasted as good as it can on release.

4) Do you value it differently depending on the locale of the wine, the producer of the wine, or the variety of the grape?
Not really. As I mentioned above for Petrus, I am looking for a distinctive style, more than significant (say beyond ten years) ageability. In the case of many great wines that goes hand in hand. I have been blown away by young wines from many places, grapes and producers, and, given the vagaries of extended aging, that early deliciousness is just as valuable.

5) Do you value it differently than you did 5 or 10 years ago?
Probably so. That’s largely because I am in my early 50s, and a 40 years aging curve no longer makes sense. I am done buying new-release vintage Port, and top-tier new Bordeaux. I value it less. I have filled the racks with ageable wines.