WA 100/100 and the price of 2016 Sandrone Barolo le Vigne

[Tom_Taylor]

$179 at Wine House

[Andy_Sc]

I like that they taste blind often in Jancis Robinson’s reports. In their coverage of 2016 barolo they definitiely have some interesting ratings compared to Galloni and WA. Points wise Vietti’s crus and Rinaldi Brunate are getting the same ratings as a lot of other Barolos such as Renato Ratti Marchenasco, Colla Bussia, Brovia barolo (normale) etc. Gaja Speers 2016 even gets a lower score.

Agree, the blind tasting part is good. I prefer that too. But this particular report with 2/3 of all wines rated 17 or 17.5 points and 90% (!) of all wines rated in the very small span of 16 to 17.5 points, in combination with the ultra short descriptions which don’t tell you much about the character of the wines is just not a helpful guide, in my opinion. I have done my fair share of larger tasting, tasting trips and I do score the wines I taste (helpful exercise) and there is just no way, all this wines were that close. I could ignore the scores (as many do and I often do from critics I don’t really know or my palate isn’t aligned with) but then I’m left with this ultra short comments which give you three aromas it displayed and tells you that the acidity is high, the tannins are there and that the wine is young… very helpful generic comments.

A couple of thoughts on this:

• I wonder if critics like Galloni can stay objective in their judgement of a given wine, when they obviously know the people behind the bottle.
• The lasted report from Jancis Robinson seems to suggest that their isn’t that big of a difference quality wise among a big group of producers in Langhe. On the other hand other critics have a handful of top estates and then a very large group in the middle.
• Or are they simply saying that Barolo at this young stage is almost impossible to get a solid impression of what is in the bottle do to the wall of tannins.

If a critics says that Barolo this young can’t be judged, than this critic probably has the wrong job.

Not that Cellartracker, or the Cellartracker score specifically would be right or some kind of holy grail, nevertheless it is often one of the more reliable guides out there and usually something in the top 10 of any vintage cellartracker, will be a great wine. The top 10 wines according to the consumers on Cellartracker for Barolo 2010 and in brackets Gallonis score:

1. Conterno Monfortino (100)
2. Vietti Ravera (100)
3. Rinaldi Brunate (100)
4. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo (100)
5. Grasso Rüncot (96+)
6. Conterno Romirasco (96+)
7. Conterno Colonnello (95)
8. Ratti Rocche (91)
9. Sandrone Boschis (97+)
10. Azelia San Rocco (96)

Galloni rated awarded in total 5 Barolos 100 points, 4 of them are – at least so far – the top choices for wine lovers too. That’s an impressive hit rate, in my opinion.

[Kevin_Sidders]

Not that Cellartracker, or the Cellartracker score specifically would be right or some kind of holy grail, nevertheless it is often one of the more reliable guides out there and usually something in the top 10 of any vintage cellartracker, will be a great wine. The top 10 wines according to the consumers on Cellartracker for Barolo 2010 and in brackets Gallonis score:

1. Conterno Monfortino (100)
2. Vietti Ravera (100)
3. Rinaldi Brunate (100)
4. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo (100)
5. Grasso Rüncot (96+)
6. Conterno Romirasco (96+)
7. Conterno Colonnello (95)
8. Ratti Rocche (91)
9. Sandrone Boschis (97+)
10. Azelia San Rocco (96)

Galloni rated awarded in total 5 Barolos 100 points, 4 of them are – at least so far – the top choices for wine lovers too. That’s an impressive hit rate, in my opinion.

I think there’s quite a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. Many people who bought it know the reviewer score, and desperately want their purchase to live up to the hype…

[Tom_Taylor]

Not that Cellartracker, or the Cellartracker score specifically would be right or some kind of holy grail, nevertheless it is often one of the more reliable guides out there and usually something in the top 10 of any vintage cellartracker, will be a great wine. The top 10 wines according to the consumers on Cellartracker for Barolo 2010 and in brackets Gallonis score:

1. Conterno Monfortino (100)
2. Vietti Ravera (100)
3. Rinaldi Brunate (100)
4. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo (100)
5. Grasso Rüncot (96+)
6. Conterno Romirasco (96+)
7. Conterno Colonnello (95)
8. Ratti Rocche (91)
9. Sandrone Boschis (97+)
10. Azelia San Rocco (96)

Galloni rated awarded in total 5 Barolos 100 points, 4 of them are – at least so far – the top choices for wine lovers too. That’s an impressive hit rate, in my opinion.

I think there’s quite a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. Many people who bought it know the reviewer score, and desperately want their purchase to live up to the hype…

The clear outlier here is the Ratti Rocche, but I believe that was a WS top 5 WOTY or something? Not a wine I would expect to be the top 10 of any vintage

[Greg_K]

I like that they taste blind often in Jancis Robinson’s reports. In their coverage of 2016 barolo they definitiely have some interesting ratings compared to Galloni and WA. Points wise Vietti’s crus and Rinaldi Brunate are getting the same ratings as a lot of other Barolos such as Renato Ratti Marchenasco, Colla Bussia, Brovia barolo (normale) etc. Gaja Speers 2016 even gets a lower score.

Agree, the blind tasting part is good. I prefer that too. But this particular report with 2/3 of all wines rated 17 or 17.5 points and 90% (!) of all wines rated in the very small span of 16 to 17.5 points, in combination with the ultra short descriptions which don’t tell you much about the character of the wines is just not a helpful guide, in my opinion. I have done my fair share of larger tasting, tasting trips and I do score the wines I taste (helpful exercise) and there is just no way, all this wines were that close. I could ignore the scores (as many do and I often do from critics I don’t really know or my palate isn’t aligned with) but then I’m left with this ultra short comments which give you three aromas it displayed and tells you that the acidity is high, the tannins are there and that the wine is young… very helpful generic comments.

A couple of thoughts on this:

• I wonder if critics like Galloni can stay objective in their judgement of a given wine, when they obviously know the people behind the bottle.
• The lasted report from Jancis Robinson seems to suggest that their isn’t that big of a difference quality wise among a big group of producers in Langhe. On the other hand other critics have a handful of top estates and then a very large group in the middle.
• Or are they simply saying that Barolo at this young stage is almost impossible to get a solid impression of what is in the bottle do to the wall of tannins.

If a critics says that Barolo this young can’t be judged, than this critic probably has the wrong job.

Not that Cellartracker, or the Cellartracker score specifically would be right or some kind of holy grail, nevertheless it is often one of the more reliable guides out there and usually something in the top 10 of any vintage cellartracker, will be a great wine. The top 10 wines according to the consumers on Cellartracker for Barolo 2010 and in brackets Gallonis score:

1. Conterno Monfortino (100)
2. Vietti Ravera (100)
3. Rinaldi Brunate (100)
4. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo (100)
5. Grasso Rüncot (96+)
6. Conterno Romirasco (96+)
7. Conterno Colonnello (95)
8. Ratti Rocche (91)
9. Sandrone Boschis (97+)
10. Azelia San Rocco (96)

Galloni rated awarded in total 5 Barolos 100 points, 4 of them are – at least so far – the top choices for wine lovers too. That’s an impressive hit rate, in my opinion.

I think this is a very bad metric, because people buy the wines they like. For example, I don’t really like Aldo Conterno’s wines, but I never drink them or buy them (because I don’t like them). Thus the people who drink them are the people who like them. What does the score mean? Who knows.

[Keith_Levenberg]

I have recorded the daily average price, as seen on “Wine Searcher”, for the 2016 Sandrone Barolo le Vigne price, right after the WA 100/100 Published on July 23,2020. (I have kept the screen copies. Prices in Euro.)

July 23 - 97 Euro
July 24 - 106 Euro
July 27 - 144 Euro
July 28 - 157 Euro
July 29 - 171 Euro
July 30 - 189 Euro
July 31 - 209 Euro
Aug 5 - 215 Euro
Today Aug 6 - 198 Euro

Any guess what’s next ?

Do the changes in averages reflect price increases or simply the cheaper offerings being purchased, thus raising the average?
I haven’t had the sense that Larmer’s ratings move markets but I could be wrong, at least at the 100-point threshold.

[AndreasB]

Agree, the blind tasting part is good. I prefer that too. But this particular report with 2/3 of all wines rated 17 or 17.5 points and 90% (!) of all wines rated in the very small span of 16 to 17.5 points, in combination with the ultra short descriptions which don’t tell you much about the character of the wines is just not a helpful guide, in my opinion. I have done my fair share of larger tasting, tasting trips and I do score the wines I taste (helpful exercise) and there is just no way, all this wines were that close. I could ignore the scores (as many do and I often do from critics I don’t really know or my palate isn’t aligned with) but then I’m left with this ultra short comments which give you three aromas it displayed and tells you that the acidity is high, the tannins are there and that the wine is young… very helpful generic comments.

Completely agree with you. Rating this many bottles within such a short span is simply too easy. First I thought the scores were based on how the wine tasted now and not factoring in any future upside, but then I read their scoring system, where it explicitly states that the score is based on future potential. Then when you see that the top wines of the vintage only get 18/20 and couple that with their article about how great 2016 in barolo is I just get a little confused .

[Otto_Forsberg]

Thanks for sharing the data! It’s incredible to see how quickly the price skyrockets. I dread when WA/WS give 99/100 point scores to a wine I like. It means in many cases I will never be able to buy it again for a reasonable price.

Case in point, 7-8 years ago, I bought the 1986 Ygay blanco in an auction for $45 (I was the only bidder on the lot.) Then WA gives the wine 100 points and now the same wine is $500.

You’re now confusing Marques de Murrieta Ygay Blanco Gran Reserva 1986 with Marques de Murrieta Castillo Ygay Blanco Gran Reserva Especial 1986. 7-8 years ago Ygay Blanco Gran Reserva 1986 had been on the market for quite some time, while Castillo Ygay Gran Reserva Especial 1986 wasn’t even released yet. It was aged for 21 years in oak, 5½ in concrete vats and 3½ years in bottles, released at 30 years of age in late 2016. It’s simply impossible you would’ve been able to buy it 7-8 years ago if it was released less than 4 years ago.

[Asger_L_a_r_s_e_n]

I am seeing fair prices for the Aleste 2016 (~90 euro) - any recommendations for this one?

[Ofer_Refaeli]

I like that they taste blind often in Jancis Robinson’s reports. In their coverage of 2016 barolo they definitiely have some interesting ratings compared to Galloni and WA. Points wise Vietti’s crus and Rinaldi Brunate are getting the same ratings as a lot of other Barolos such as Renato Ratti Marchenasco, Colla Bussia, Brovia barolo (normale) etc. Gaja Speers 2016 even gets a lower score.

Agree, the blind tasting part is good. I prefer that too. But this particular report with 2/3 of all wines rated 17 or 17.5 points and 90% (!) of all wines rated in the very small span of 16 to 17.5 points, in combination with the ultra short descriptions which don’t tell you much about the character of the wines is just not a helpful guide, in my opinion. I have done my fair share of larger tasting, tasting trips and I do score the wines I taste (helpful exercise) and there is just no way, all this wines were that close. I could ignore the scores (as many do and I often do from critics I don’t really know or my palate isn’t aligned with) but then I’m left with this ultra short comments which give you three aromas it displayed and tells you that the acidity is high, the tannins are there and that the wine is young… very helpful generic comments.

A couple of thoughts on this:

• I wonder if critics like Galloni can stay objective in their judgement of a given wine, when they obviously know the people behind the bottle.
• The lasted report from Jancis Robinson seems to suggest that their isn’t that big of a difference quality wise among a big group of producers in Langhe. On the other hand other critics have a handful of top estates and then a very large group in the middle.
• Or are they simply saying that Barolo at this young stage is almost impossible to get a solid impression of what is in the bottle do to the wall of tannins.

If a critics says that Barolo this young can’t be judged, than this critic probably has the wrong job.

Not that Cellartracker, or the Cellartracker score specifically would be right or some kind of holy grail, nevertheless it is often one of the more reliable guides out there and usually something in the top 10 of any vintage cellartracker, will be a great wine. The top 10 wines according to the consumers on Cellartracker for Barolo 2010 and in brackets Gallonis score:

1. Conterno Monfortino (100)
2. Vietti Ravera (100)
3. Rinaldi Brunate (100)
4. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo (100)
5. Grasso Rüncot (96+)
6. Conterno Romirasco (96+)
7. Conterno Colonnello (95)
8. Ratti Rocche (91)
9. Sandrone Boschis (97+)
10. Azelia San Rocco (96)

Galloni rated awarded in total 5 Barolos 100 points, 4 of them are – at least so far – the top choices for wine lovers too. That’s an impressive hit rate, in my opinion.

Sandrone le vigne 2010 Galloni 100

[Sean_S_y_d_n_e_y]

18/20 is a really good score. I would think that most great wines from most vintages top out around there. I know we’ve been desensitized to 100s but to me, a 100 should probably be reserved for a few wines in a decade - if not a lifetime - not a year.

[JonathanG]

No surprise on the pricing leap. When Leoville Barton 2016 was the #1 WS for 2019 the price went from $100 to $180 overnight…

[F.Daner]

Kerin O’keefe had 2 100’s and 7 99’s. She loved Brovia, Burlotto, Cavallotto( perhaps the highest scoring wine below $70),Grasso. Certainly a fair amount of consistency across the top wines.

[AAgrawal]

Kerin O’keefe had 2 100’s and 7 99’s. She loved Brovia, Burlotto, Cavallotto( perhaps the highest scoring wine below $70),Grasso. Certainly a fair amount of consistency across the top wines.

In terms of calibration, she scored Burlotto’s barolo (classico) 98 points, which it is not. At least my half bottle from yesterday. A very nice barolo, and certainly worth buying if you can find it at a good price, but not a near-perfect wine. I do appreciate the attempt to score outside a classification (ie: classico above acclivi and Cannubi).

That said, I’m certainly buying plenty of wines that she liked that I also traditionally like, especially Brovia. Can’t say I have a ton of experience with Cavallotto.

Getting back to the question at hand: I’m not surprised that critics liked the Le Vigne over the Aleste. When I’ve tried both bottlings, I’ve generally liked the Le Vigne better. It’s also cheaper (at least until now…), so that was always a plus. I’m not planning on buying Sandrone’s 2016s at these prices though. Sometimes the price escalation fades, especially for WS Top 100 wines, maybe less so with these 100-point wines.

[Tom_Taylor]

18/20 is a really good score. I would think that most great wines from most vintages top out around there. I know we’ve been desensitized to 100s but to me, a 100 should probably be reserved for a few wines in a decade - if not a lifetime - not a year.

+1

[pnitze]

I for one am bummed that Sandrone’s Barolos’ prices have shot up. At this rate '13 will be my last vintage. While my cellar is predominantly made up of Berserker certified traditionalists, I also very much enjoy middle of the road makers like Sandrone and Gaja. At tastings of recent vintages ('12 and '13) Sandrone has always been one of my favorites, and I’ve gone through a good bunch of 1996/1998/2001 and I can confirm that they age beautifully.

FWIW, I am not a Sandrone partisan and don’t currently own any bottles of Sandrone. I do own a healthy cross section of traditionally made Barolo from the major producers and some minor producers. But my recent experiences with 1998 Le Vigne and Cannubi were outstanding. The wine was aging beautifully and just a joy to drink. They seemed to have plenty of gas left in the tank in a cold cellar.

[John_Morris]

Not that Cellartracker, or the Cellartracker score specifically would be right or some kind of holy grail, nevertheless it is often one of the more reliable guides out there and usually something in the top 10 of any vintage cellartracker, will be a great wine. The top 10 wines according to the consumers on Cellartracker for Barolo 2010 and in brackets Gallonis score:

1. Conterno Monfortino (100)
2. Vietti Ravera (100)
3. Rinaldi Brunate (100)
4. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo (100)
5. Grasso Rüncot (96+)
6. Conterno Romirasco (96+)
7. Conterno Colonnello (95)
8. Ratti Rocche (91)
9. Sandrone Boschis (97+)
10. Azelia San Rocco (96)

Galloni rated awarded in total 5 Barolos 100 points, 4 of them are – at least so far – the top choices for wine lovers too. That’s an impressive hit rate, in my opinion.

I think there’s quite a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. Many people who bought it know the reviewer score, and desperately want their purchase to live up to the hype…

++1

[John_Morris]

I have recorded the daily average price, as seen on “Wine Searcher”, for the 2016 Sandrone Barolo le Vigne price, right after the WA 100/100 Published on July 23,2020. (I have kept the screen copies. Prices in Euro.)

July 23 - 97 Euro
July 24 - 106 Euro
July 27 - 144 Euro
July 28 - 157 Euro
July 29 - 171 Euro
July 30 - 189 Euro
July 31 - 209 Euro
Aug 5 - 215 Euro
Today Aug 6 - 198 Euro

Any guess what’s next ?

Do the changes in averages reflect price increases or simply the cheaper offerings being purchased, thus raising the average?
I haven’t had the sense that Larmer’s ratings move markets but I could be wrong, at least at the 100-point threshold.

That’s a very good question, Keith. It’s hard to think the same retailers doubled their prices in two weeks. It’s more likely that the discounters or retailers that bought early were cleaned out when the score came out.

It’s probably not a big factor, but if that’s a global average price, you have to consider exchange rates. The euro fell a few percentage points against the US and HK dollars in that two weeks (July 23-Aug 6), which would have added slightly to the average price in euros. And the euro is down about 10% against the HK dollar since the spring.

[John_Morris]

How much of the higher prices on 2016 Sandrone will be a self fulfilling prophesy based on all the posts about 2016 Le Vigne pricing on Wineberserkers? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that much excitement for Sandrone before on here…

Keep in mind it hasn’t arrived physically as far as I know in many locations. Not everywhere sells pre-arrival. I bought 2 bottles from a NYC shop to try and I think it arrives in a few weeks for them.

Historically Sandrone has been ‘underpriced’ relative to the scores, I presume because it has a modernist image and anything associated with modernism is very out of favor right now. I don’t have a ton of experience with the wines but I think the recent vintages are maybe a bit like Vietti where they have more concentration than the most traditional wines but they’re not oaky. But even the 2010, 100 points by Galloni, has never gone crazy in price - maybe $200-250 at most vs the Bartolo 2010, another AG100, trading up to $400-500.

To me the pricing on Sandrone reflects a slightly different dynamic; a lot of wine drinkers buying high end Barolo tend to do so with an eye towards aging it many years*, and there’s not a lot of evidence that modernist wines age particularly well (having had some 15 year old Sandrone, for instance, I don’t think Sandrone of those vintages did). That causes more modernist producers to trade at a “discount” to scores relative to traditional producers; I don’t think people will be excited to see 30 year old Scavino, Sandrone, etc. And, of course, oak is in the eye of the beholder (palate of the taster?); Sandrone uses 500 liter French oak to age the Le Vigne. That is liable to make a pretty oaky wine to my palate, though I’m someone that’s pretty sensitive to new oak in nebbiolo.


*There are exceptions, of course.

Although Sandrone was in the De Grazia portfolio, he has never been a full-blown modernist. He uses 500 liter French oak barrels, to be sure, but only ~10% new. That’s very different from using, say, 50% new barriques. Perhaps more importantly, he didn’t go in for the short macerations of a lot of his neighbors on the De Grazia list.

Also, FYI, Scavino is now using more tradition techniques, botte in particular.

[Alan_Rath]

A very compelling note!

Yea no kidding, an outstanding note in how it conveys detail plus emotion. Compelling.

I have not really followed her and tried to figure out here palate preferences, but do see her notes on many Italian wines.

Where is she on the spectrum, John - taste spectrum.

Scratching my head, because, after reading her note, I have literally no idea what the wine might taste like.