When to Drink Domain Tempier Rouge

[Al_Osterheld]

I have people argue with me that the “animale” Marshal mentioned was a characteristic of the Mourvedre fruit, but it disappeared when they cleaned out the old wood foudres in the cellar.

-Al

[John_Morris]

Ooh…cleaning the cellars. That’s a horrific step into modernism…

I have people argue with me that the “animale” Marshal mentioned was a characteristic of the Mourvedre fruit, but it disappeared when they cleaned out the old wood foudres in the cellar.

-Al

No more brett? Soon Alfert will be moaning…

[Al_Osterheld]

“That’s not brett, that’s Mourvedre!”. Apparently, the foudres were good at bringing it out.

-Al

[DougS]

Pre-2000 reds…really fun, cool, old-school Bandol. 2000 and later reds, big, jammier, riper, less animale…wines that could be made anywhere. You can age them, but they won’t be the same as the older wines.

I disagree. I don’t think they taste at all like they could be made anywhere. There’s still plenty of regional typicity, and now it’s not clouded by brettanomyces, which smells and tastes like brettanomyces regardless of where it’s from. I agree that the wines aren’t the same, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. The wines will age more consistently now, and yes, they will taste a bit different. With age they may actually start to look more like the older wines, just without so much brett and bottle variation.

[H_Wallace_Jr]

Similarly, decanting would help, but in my opinion, I don’t think any amount of decanting would open it up to where I presume it should be.

Where do you presume it should be?

I drink young Tempier Rouge frequently (as much as I drink old). They need food and decanting and can be pretty spectacular in the 5-8 year range.

[Al_Osterheld]

I drink Pradeaux and other producers as much as Tempier these days, and also enjoy them in that same early range. Maybe it’s from helping in a winery, but the tannins aren’t an issue to me if the wines are open enough.

Hardy, curious to know your thoughts (also other winemakers) on why Mourvedre seems somewhat more prone to brett? Prone to slow fermentations maybe from nutrient issues? Higher Ph?

-Al

[John_Morris]

Hardy, curious to know your thoughts (also other winemakers) on why Mourvedre seems somewhat more prone to brett? Prone to slow fermentations maybe from nutrient issues? Higher Ph?

I’m not Hardy, but I recall someone at Beaucastel saying in an interview ~15-20 years ago that mourvedre could produce compounds that were similar to those produced by brett but which were not a product a brett. As I recall, there was some skepticism about this as the genuine explanation for Beaucastel’s characteristic profile.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Ooh…cleaning the cellars. That’s a horrific step into modernism…

I have people argue with me that the “animale” Marshal mentioned was a characteristic of the Mourvedre fruit, but it disappeared when they cleaned out the old wood foudres in the cellar.

-Al

No more brett? Soon Alfert will be moaning…

I’m out!!

Damn modernists!

Barrels don’t need to be cleaned, they are always wet!

[Al_Osterheld]

Hardy, curious to know your thoughts (also other winemakers) on why Mourvedre seems somewhat more prone to brett? Prone to slow fermentations maybe from nutrient issues? Higher Ph?

I’m not Hardy, but I recall someone at Beaucastel saying in an interview ~15-20 years ago that mourvedre could produce compounds that were similar to those produced by brett but which were not a product a brett. As I recall, there was some skepticism about this as the genuine explanation for Beaucastel’s characteristic profile.

I think it’s true that Mourvedre is one of the varieties prone to producing H2S and other sulfur compounds because of tendency for certain nutrient deficiencies. But, my impression is it’s also prone to brett (which isn’t just H2S and the like).

-Al

[H_Wallace_Jr]

Hardy, curious to know your thoughts (also other winemakers) on why Mourvedre seems somewhat more prone to brett? Prone to slow fermentations maybe from nutrient issues? Higher Ph?

I’m not Hardy, but I recall someone at Beaucastel saying in an interview ~15-20 years ago that mourvedre could produce compounds that were similar to those produced by brett but which were not a product a brett. As I recall, there was some skepticism about this as the genuine explanation for Beaucastel’s characteristic profile.

I think it’s true that Mourvedre is one of the varieties prone to producing H2S and other sulfur compounds because of tendency for certain nutrient deficiencies. But, my impression is it’s also prone to brett (which isn’t just H2S and the like).

-Al

As a variety, I do not think Mourvèdre is more prone to brett.

(More prone to reduction, yes. I agree somewhat with the comments from Beaucastel. Reduction in Mourvèdre can have a different smell / profile to typical H2S)

[lleichtman]

We have 4 years of Tempier Bandol including 1999, 2005, 2009, 2012. Had a 1998 in February and it was quite nice and seemed to be in the sweet spot. Will be drinking the '99 in June.

[larry_schaffer]

I’m not Hardy, but I recall someone at Beaucastel saying in an interview ~15-20 years ago that mourvedre could produce compounds that were similar to those produced by brett but which were not a product a brett. As I recall, there was some skepticism about this as the genuine explanation for Beaucastel’s characteristic profile.

I think it’s true that Mourvedre is one of the varieties prone to producing H2S and other sulfur compounds because of tendency for certain nutrient deficiencies. But, my impression is it’s also prone to brett (which isn’t just H2S and the like).

-Al

As a variety, I do not think Mourvèdre is more prone to brett.

(More prone to reduction, yes. I agree somewhat with the comments from Beaucastel. Reduction in Mourvèdre can have a different smell / profile to typical H2S)

I tend to agree with Hardy - but not sure why they would be more prone to reduction then, say, Syrah, which more often tends to run in that direction . . .

Cheers

[H_Wallace_Jr]

I think it’s true that Mourvedre is one of the varieties prone to producing H2S and other sulfur compounds because of tendency for certain nutrient deficiencies. But, my impression is it’s also prone to brett (which isn’t just H2S and the like).

-Al

As a variety, I do not think Mourvèdre is more prone to brett.

(More prone to reduction, yes. I agree somewhat with the comments from Beaucastel. Reduction in Mourvèdre can have a different smell / profile to typical H2S)

I tend to agree with Hardy - but not sure why they would be more prone to reduction then, say, Syrah, which more often tends to run in that direction . . .

Cheers

I think it is similar to Syrah which is more prone than many other varieties.

[Al_Osterheld]

Yes, I’ve read that Mourvèdre and Syrah are similar in that regard, though wouldn’t be surprised if Syrah was slightly more prone.

-Al

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

Ageee and disagree with Marshall. Things changed in 2000, and based on the wines I can assume it’s beyond cleaning or replacing foudres. Colors deeper, fruit qualities darker, tannins softer at the outset. That speaks to maybe farming and picking a little differently, but moreso I think the winemaking must have changed. Oxygen use for sure. All that said, the wines remain fantastic and ageworthy and I have no issues. Things change. Terroir isn’t flavor, it’s not a trick dog. Terroir is emotion, and that’s still in these wines for sure.

[Marshall_Manning]

Pre-2000 reds…really fun, cool, old-school Bandol. 2000 and later reds, big, jammier, riper, less animale…wines that could be made anywhere. You can age them, but they won’t be the same as the older wines.

Specifics, or it’s the classic copy paste about the old days being better.

It has nothing to do with any copy and paste, the style of the wines definitely changed when Daniel Ravier took over the winemaking from Jean-Marie Peyraud in 2000. If you talk to anyone who has tasted a number of the older wines, they will tell you the same thing. As I said, the wines are jammier, riper and don’t have the same complexity as the older wines do. I also don’t think they will age as well, but I won’t know unless I try them from someone else, as I stopped buying them when I tasted the change in style in the early transition years.

[Marshall_Manning]

Marshall can answer for himself, but really, specifics of what? WB is not a law court. He’s reporting on what he tasted, and, about that, he’s fairly specific. He may have no idea what caused the change and there’s no obligation he should. If you disagree, based on your own tastings, by all means register your disagreement. But cross-examining him doesn’t get us anywhere.

Thanks, Jonathan. I come here to talk about wine and have fun, not to interrogate others, but whatever floats their boat .

In case my explanation above isn’t enough, I have a pretty extensive background tasting Tempier, having had a number of wines and cuvees from '82 on (as well as a smattering of earlier bottles), have visited the domaine three times, and tasted tank samples as well as bottled wines on those visits, as well as other group Bandol tastings on the Kermit buying trips where we would compare the wines from Tempier, Gros Nore, Terrebrune, etc. If that’s not enough to know a style change then I doubt David would be happy with anything?

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

But the above post proves that David was right to cross examine you as it did get more information from you and others. I don’t know that I’ve tasted anything made after 2004, though that’s just an accident. I have some 2015s in my cellar. I would be sorry to see you are right, but not that surprised.

[Ramon_C]

Global warming.
I read an article with an interview of Ravier confirming that the style indeed had changed in this century and blamed global warming trends.

[Markus_S]

In case my explanation above isn’t enough, I have a pretty extensive background tasting Tempier, having had a number of wines and cuvees from '82 on (as well as a smattering of earlier bottles), have visited the domaine three times, and tasted tank samples as well as bottled wines on those visits, as well as other group Bandol tastings on the Kermit buying trips where we would compare the wines from Tempier, Gros Nore, Terrebrune, etc. If that’s not enough to know a style change then I doubt David would be happy with anything?

Can’t say that I have as great a history as you with this estate, but I’ve been cellaring and drinking these regularly from about the mid-80’s and I would say that something did change around the time you mention, but that these are still excellent wines. If anything, they are cleaner and more reliable, but still carry their mourvedre sauvage with aplomb.