Whole bunch in burgundy

[Michael_H2]

Guillemot I think is partial or full stem use?

If you are referring to Domaine Pierre Guillemot, Kermit Lynch’s website indicates de-stemmed. That being said, errors on importer / distributor websites are far more common than you’d think, so if you if info connected directly to the domaine you are probably right. I only post because now I am very curious myself… Does anyone know definitively?

[Ethan_Abraham]

Guillemot I think is partial or full stem use?

If you are referring to Domaine Pierre Guillemot, Kermit Lynch’s website indicates de-stemmed. That being said, errors on importer / distributor websites are far more common than you’d think, so if you if info connected directly to the domaine you are probably right. I only post because now I am very curious myself… Does anyone know definitively?

Hmm. I couldn’t actually find info either way on kermit’s site. I was going off some jasper morris notes that mentioned stems. I definitely thought the last one I had tasted stemmy, but as the old saying goes, I haven’t confused a destemmed vs whole cluster wine since lunch.

[William_Kelley]

Guillemot I think is partial or full stem use?

Entirely destemmed until recently, when they’ve been using percentages of stems up to around 30 %.

[William_Kelley]

surely though when you get a whiff of freshly cut green beans in a young burgundy its on account of the stems?

I think anything overtly herbal these days is as likely to be due to marginal maturity + poor vine genetics as stems.

[Ethan_Abraham]

Guillemot I think is partial or full stem use?

Entirely destemmed until recently, when they’ve been using percentages of stems up to around 30 %.

OK that makes sense! Thanks. The one I had was the 2017 Narbantons which definitely seemed a bit stemmy (but not a ton). So that would make sense.

[William_Kelley]

I should have used “perception” of freshness, but surely it can be agreed on that more warmer vintages (or again, let me be more concise - higher potential alc. vintages) such as '18 or '19, we’re seeing more vignerons in the Cote D’Or looking to add stems in order to add “a perception” of freshness.

If someone has alternate data, I’d love to hear it, as I have heard this from more than one source on the ground.

Sure, that’s indeed the fashionable discourse of today; but the fact that many producers who de-stem make make very “fresh” wines complicates things. Do Mugnier’s entirely destemmed wines, for example, lack freshness (or perfume, for that matter)? I wouldn’t say so.

I think on the one hand, it’s a technique that some influential people work with; and, in these ripe vintages, there’s not much obvious downside to playing around with stems. On the other hand, it’s a talking point that’s very easy to explain to the general public—and, for journalists, perhaps I’m being cynical, but it sometimes seems like great filler to take up space in a tasting note: by the time you’ve devoted fifty words to the vine age, location of the parcel, percentage of stems, and percentage of new oak, then there’s less pressure to actually evoke the wine’s structure or aromas.

[William_Kelley]

Guillemot I think is partial or full stem use?

Entirely destemmed until recently, when they’ve been using percentages of stems up to around 30 %.

OK that makes sense! Thanks. The one I had was the 2017 Narbantons which definitely seemed a bit stemmy (but not a ton). So that would make sense.

Hmm I think that one was entirely destemmed but I’d have to ask to check…

[Ethan_Abraham]

Entirely destemmed until recently, when they’ve been using percentages of stems up to around 30 %.

OK that makes sense! Thanks. The one I had was the 2017 Narbantons which definitely seemed a bit stemmy (but not a ton). So that would make sense.

Hmm I think that one was entirely destemmed but I’d have to ask to check…

It is highly probable that I am incorrect in my tasting assessment.

[William_Kelley]

OK that makes sense! Thanks. The one I had was the 2017 Narbantons which definitely seemed a bit stemmy (but not a ton). So that would make sense.

Hmm I think that one was entirely destemmed but I’d have to ask to check…

It is highly probable that I am incorrect in my tasting assessment.

I just wrote Vincent Guillemot to ask out of curiosity! But if you’re wrong, you wouldn’t be the first.

I made a barrel of 2019 Beaune that was entirely destemmed (and pretty thoroughly crushed, for that matter), and which everyone who has tasted it, including an MS and several Burgundian winemakers, have guessed was made with whole bunches. It’s a very complicated business.

[Peter_Chiu]

Hmmmmmm…the more I know and learn about Burgundy, the more …I realize…that I know less.

Back to squire one : trust your favorite producers. That is what my grand-aunt : Come-Good-Fortune used to tell me when I was a child.

[Rauno_E_NZ]

Lol, I too have assumed the Guillemot Narbatons has stems from the flavour profile! Schooled again, not the first nor the last time I wager . Like those wines though

[James_Billy]

A couple of additions to the list:

Domaine Simon Bize - Whole cluster or partial whole cluster depending on parcel and vintage. I believe the goal is whole cluster when possible
Hubert Lignier - Partial whole cluster. I believe Laurent likes to vinify destemmed and whole cluster in alternating layers with percentage varying by the vintage and parcel

William, please would you refrain from your relentless stream of interesting and factually relevant posts. I can’t press the like button EACH time. Life is just too short.

From now on, just assume a like for all your posts. Well, probably most if not all.

[William_Kelley]

OK that makes sense! Thanks. The one I had was the 2017 Narbantons which definitely seemed a bit stemmy (but not a ton). So that would make sense.

Hmm I think that one was entirely destemmed but I’d have to ask to check…

It is highly probable that I am incorrect in my tasting assessment.

You shouldn’t have doubted yourself in fact, as it turns out you were right: Vincent did use some stems in 2017 Narbantons!

[Peter_Chiu]

A couple of additions to the list:

Domaine Simon Bize - Whole cluster or partial whole cluster depending on parcel and vintage. I believe the goal is whole cluster when possible
Hubert Lignier - Partial whole cluster. I believe Laurent likes to vinify destemmed and whole cluster in alternating layers with percentage varying by the vintage and parcel

William, please would you refrain from your relentless stream of interesting and factually relevant posts. I can’t press the like button EACH time. Life is just too short.

From now on, just assume a like for all your posts. Well, probably most if not all.

I Just would also like to say (and add ) my to William - for all his insightful information and thoughtful comments which I love and learn a lot.

They sure add more enjoyment when I open a bottle. Please also note that my comments in post No. 30 …should be viewed in a the negative way !. I have not been posting here for a while" I decided to re-start again- due to the fact of many posts by William - even now that I am in my twilight years ( which I am not suppose to be in concern with ten-thousand things - as one of the Old Chinese Saying ).

PS : One of my prefer producer, Domaine Charles Audoin ( in Marsannay ), is partial and/or whole bunches.

[William_Kelley]

A couple of additions to the list:

Domaine Simon Bize - Whole cluster or partial whole cluster depending on parcel and vintage. I believe the goal is whole cluster when possible
Hubert Lignier - Partial whole cluster. I believe Laurent likes to vinify destemmed and whole cluster in alternating layers with percentage varying by the vintage and parcel

William, please would you refrain from your relentless stream of interesting and factually relevant posts. I can’t press the like button EACH time. Life is just too short.

From now on, just assume a like for all your posts. Well, probably most if not all.

I Just would also like to say (and add ) my to William - for all his insightful information and thoughtful comments which I love and learn a lot.

They sure add more enjoyment when I open a bottle. Please also note that my comments in post No. 30 …should be viewed in a the negative way !. I have not been posting here for a while" I decided to re-start again- due to the fact of many posts by William - even now that I am in my twilight years ( which I am not suppose to be in concern with ten-thousand things - as one of the Old Chinese Saying ).

PS : One of my prefer producer, Domaine Charles Audoin ( in Marsannay ), is partial and/or whole bunches.

You’re too kind, thank you!

[Peter_Chiu]

William…you are more than welcome as you earn it.

One other important point to add : the ripeness of stem - which means when exactly the producers able to pick up the grapes as he would like.

[William_Kelley]

The other technique that’s of interest here is what I think is best described in French as “vendange entière decoupé”, i.e. “cut up whole bunches”, which was pioneered by Leroy around the turn of the millennium I believe. Essentially, you cut out the rachis, leaving the berries attached to the pedicels. I do this for my Chambolle-Musigny, and I do think in a sense it combines the best of both worlds in that you get some of the powdery stem tannin (but not too much) and whole cluster-like perfume, without the astringency or potassium that can come from the stems. Here are some photos of a cluster, the detritus left over (including rigorous sorting, not that it was honestly really necessary in 2020, but… one only makes wine once a year), and the end result. NB that the berries that are not red are either Muscat or Pinot Gris, both of which are planted in small quantities in the old vine parcel we draw on.

2020 Chambolle cluster by WilliamGFKelley, on Flickr

2020 Chambolle detritus by WilliamGFKelley, on Flickr

2020 Chambolle decoupé by WilliamGFKelley, on Flickr

This is becoming quite fashionable in Burgundy, and the wines’ prices now justify the labor. But I do think it’s more than just a talking point.

FYI, the grapes in this photo came in at around 13.6% natural alcohol, pH 3.30, with under two grams per liter malic acid.

[Mattstolz]

this type of thread is why I love Wine Berserkers.


well… to be honest I also love it for the dumpster fire threads but mostly this kind. Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge with us

[larry_schaffer]

Did my first pinots this harvest - 3 different clones from the Kessler-Haak Vineyard in the Sta Rita Hills AVA. Each was picked separately, then foot stomped and 100% whole cluster fermented. It’ll be fun to share these with you either in the Fall or early 2022 . . .

Cheers.

[Doug_Lee]

This thread is incredible. Thanks for all the info.

Cheers,
Doug