RS,
As I would think the majority of pinot producers do NOT use any stem inclusion, I would suggest that these flavors may be more oak driven . . .but heck, what do I know?!?!?
Cheers
That sounds about right, and it’s probably why it was a point of emphasis at IPOB, which was all about cool climate grapes. FWIW there were a couple pinots at IPOB that pretty out of balance due to stem influence that overwhelmed anything else the vineyard was trying to say. This was a major theme of Ken Zinns’ report on the previous year’s tasting.
My own experience with pinot from my vineyard (a cool site) has been that I didn’t get stems that I felt were lignified enough for inclusion on any large scale until the vines had been in the ground for 8 years, and I suspect that whole cluster may not be in the cards for a lot of other young plantings, even in cool climates. Since that point, most of my clones will reliably lignify stems by the time the grapes ripen, and I’ve been able to use between 60 and 75% whole cluster. In contrast, the syrah I sourced from a warm climate (Shenandoah Valley) never got close to lignifying by the time the grapes were ready to harvest at reasonable brix. Even the sangiovese I took from the same vineyard (my Mom’s) had stems that were too green to use at 24 brix, and that block is 18 years old. So, I think my experience meshes with your thesis.
I’ll use anywhere fro 10-50% whole cluster on Pinot, Syrah, Grenache, Tempranillo, Mourvedre and Petite Sirah. Color plays a part in the decision on whether to use the stems and in what percentage, as does the ‘ripeness’ of the skin tannins. There’s nothing wrong with using neon green stems, its just a bit more of a dangerous game that requires greater touch. I think that its also important to note that there is not a direct correlation between amount of stems included and how tannic a wine is. More than stem color, I’ll often back off on whole clusters if the finished alcohol will be in the 15+ range. I also will rarely use much whole cluster on loamy or fertile soils as I feel that tends to derail those wines, not just because the stems tend to be more willowy and less ripe, but also because the tannin structure in the skins tends to be thinner and weaker (higher elevation wines tend to not have this problem, even on loamy soils). I think this is more important than picking late in the year. I like stem inclusion because used properly, it gives me more colors on my palette and can replace some of the tannin structure you miss when eschewing new oak. It also can provide a nice savory balance to the new oak sweetness. I’ll make some 100% whole cluster lots most years, but invariably end up blending them back as the stemminess can tend to dominate the wines from this region. Some places, like the SCM, can handle it.
This 1 hour seminar was recorded on Monday of this week and the topic was whole cluster fermentation.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29041939#utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=29041939&utm_medium=social
Just to piggy back on Jaimie’s post, the seminar at the LA event was very interesting. I learned quite a bit and now realize just how many (more) vairiables exist. Nice seeing you JK after all these years.
I take it the answer to this is “no.” Can anyone confirm it, though?
We use 100% whole cluster on our 3 Mourvedre(z) and on our Petite Sirah.
We pick early- sub 21 to 23 brix and the stems are far from brown / lignified. The wines smell and taste like crab grass next to a papermill. We keep this rolling because they are a hit with the ladies.
Jamie (and others),
One thing I thought was odd from the Whole Cluster discussion was Jim Clendenen talking about stems increasing (perhaps he said "setting) color. My experience, and all that I have read, is that stems don’t help with color…rather they seem to have the opposite effect (and witness how light Dujacs tend to be). it isn’t a problem at all…but his comments were definitely the opposite of my experience. Any thoughts?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Chris, I can tell you a bit about our approach. I often tell people that whole cluster is a vineyard technique more than a winery technique, as the success or failure ultimately is site-dependent. Certain sites and certain physical attributes of those sites have a big influence on the workability of stems. We’ve found a correlation between soil depth + water holding capacity and stem success. Our shallowest soil sites always perform better: for example, our Skyline site only has 3-4 inches of soil before you hit rock, and can’t hold water at all. As a result, the vines ripen at lower sugars and the stems are dry. We test this dryness by simply breaking apart the stems and tasting them. If there’s sap running, then you’re going to get green flavors, if the stems are dry and have a walnut skin flavor, they’re good to go. This is why the color of the stems is a red herring; the color doesn’t matter, the dryness matters, and that dryness is reliant on site, not color. But it does explain the reason that color is commonly used as an indicator, as brown or lignified stems are essentially dead, meaning they aren’t carrying sap anymore. The problem is that in sites like ours, where we’re picking relatively early, those stems are still green. We’ve been really focusing lately on identifying those sub-blocks of our vineyards that perform best with whole cluster and destemming those that don’t. This refinement has taught us a lot about the interaction of site, clone, rootstock and vintage on whole cluster. The vintage obviously plays a huge role as well, as a warm dry growing season has a very different impact on stem usage than a cool wet one.
The net result of this is that our total whole cluster percentage has crept down over the last few years, but the success of those WC fermentations has risen, as we’re now understanding better which blocks within our vineyards respond best to WC. There are definitely clones that are more inclined as well, I think Swan is particularly suited to whole cluster if it’s on the right site, while 777 comes to mind as a clone that does not seem to take WC well. The bottom line is that WC has to be approached carefully. I think it’s nearly impossible to look at a vineyard for the first time and know how it will respond to WC, you have to work at it, trial it, and try to marry the site characteristics to the fermentation, which makes it a long-term approach. We modify our whole cluster strategy every year, trying to take into effect the knowledge gained from previous vintages versus the nature of the growing season, and often use the first few WC fermentations as a barometer for the rest of harvest.
For me, the winemaking is relatively straight-forward, it just requires a gentle touch. It’s easy to over-extract WC ferments if you’re rough with them. The acidity is always a bit lower, but that never matters to us. The aromatic contribution is big, but the textural contribution can be even bigger. The stems can really lift the palate of the wine, making the mid-palate seem almost weightless. It can be a great tool for making a concentrated wine very light on its feet.
Hope that helps-
Thanks Jeff, very informative.
Not uncommonly used in the Douro as well.
Jeff – A fascinating post. Thanks.
Incredible post, Jeff. Thank you.
So how many years does it take for the stemmy flavors one often gets from young whole-cluster-fermented pinots to evolve into floral and forest floor notes? Does the transformation occur within the first few years or does it take a decade or more?
+1. Thanks and also to All the others.
I have been using stems in the form of whole clusters for years on pinot noir, zinfandel and old vine carignane. While I appreciate the other contributions that stems make, my primary reason is that whole clusters in the ferment slow things down. I want the peak temperature to top out about 90+ but don’t want to worry about it getting so hot that it sticks and I want the fermentation/maceration to last at least 21 day without having the cap fall. Several years of trial lots that were pressed at different times has led me to believe that we can achieve the best tannin management, mouth feel and aromatics by either pressing relatively early or very late. The least successful lots were those pressed at around 16-18 days. As for the color, I used to be in the school of ripe stems or no stems but have found with the fruit that we used, all fairly cool sites with typically low pH’s, that there is very little if any corellation between stem color and any green flavors. I have tasted green tea berries on clusters with dark brown stems.It seems to be much more dependent on other factors but primarily the site. The day that those green tea flavors go is usually the day we pick, irregardless of how the stems look. Our usual percentage hovers between 20 and 25% in a given year but I will occasionally do a 100% w/c lot if it seems appropriate. Conversely, if there is a problem with the fruit (potential for botrytis or other issues) i will de-stem 100% of those lots. I do feel that we have sacrificed color doing what we do but I think that the extended maceration is as responsible for that as the stem inclusion as lots pressed earlier, regardless of stem inclusion, seem to be darker. I will occasionally do a small lot of syrah with whole clusters but have not seen the same benefits. For some reason we have been able to maintain a cap on the fermenting syrah for a longer period of than either zin or pinot noir.
Don’t quote me, but i believe Monte Bello gets some. That would make sense with what some people stated above. With their cool climate, long hang time and excellent vineyard management pyrazines aren’t much of a problem there.
What Ian said about green stems and high brix grapes makes sense to me. I play with a lot of different things involving extraction. Temperature, alcohol level and time are all factors. Different chemicals extract at different thresholds. Brew coffee too cool and the extraction rate is too slow for the method and you get a weak coffee. Brew it at the optimal temperature and you get a rich cup. Brew it too hot and you extract harsher qualities. (Some people claim steeping grounds in cold water overnight makes the best coffee.) I believe some people de-alc their wines before putting it into oak for this reason. Perhaps pressing a high potential alc must with green stems a little before the end of ferm would prevent harsh extraction.
I read other winemakers point to sap as the main issue with stems. Pretty obvious once you think about it… But note Jeff also cautions against rough handling with green stems. That breaks up their tough structure, exposing more to extraction. That means there is still harshness in them, even if gentle handling and a low final alcohol doesn’t extract it.
I believe Arnot-Roberts uses 20-30% whole-cluster fermentation on their Cabernets, and Demuth Kemos does the same.
Good question. For my taste many of the Rhys are ruined by green stemmy flavors from the whole-cluster fermentation. Maybe they will improve in 10 years?