Why a 2 bottle limit on corkage?

[ybarselah]

No, I’ve read your posts. Setting a simple corkage policy of $50/bottle isn’t hard nor requires a lot of discussion/negotiation. They are not running some kind of silent auction for the corkage fee every time I bring a bottle into the restaurant.

you’ve proven my point by coming up with an arbitrary corkage policy.

What makes it arbitrary (unless you view all prices on the menu as arbitrary)?

how many bottles may i bring? magnums are same or 2x? can i pay 25$ if it’s a split? can i bring a bottle on the list? what about a different vintage? will you waive it if i buy a bottle? i brought a bottle and it was corked, and you still charged me?

I just think of corkage as another good being sold by the restaurant. It has to be priced appropriately in the context of everything being sold.

ahh. this is the very rare money quote: you think of it as another good being sold but the restaurant doesn’t. the way we know this is that corkage policies span a massive spectrum as does the expectations of the guest taking advantage of those policies.

[ybarselah]

again, that’s a . no one - especially me - is arguing “run by an algorithm” (though pricing is another matter).

hospitality is run by hospitality professionals. your point about food accomodations is apt in this regard. have a corkage policy or don’t. it’s irrelevant. the policy you create will always be inherently arbitrary if you’re trying to have it “make sense” - which is where this thread started.

the consistent problem with these threads is that individuals project their own desires and very skewed views of the industry to pitch the perfect corkage policy without realizing that it’s arbitrary all the way down.

Sorry, we’re in the realm of performative contrarianism now with this line of argument. You can’t argue corkage policies are both irrelevant and should really be set at “no corkage”. Either they’re irrelevant or there’s a right place to set them.

irrelevant to the bottom line the way most folks on these threads think about them. see the post above by someone that thinks corkage is just another thing restaurants sell. the variety of expectations by a tiny sliver of the dining public is not at all worth the hassle. these ideas are completely consistent.

[Thomas_Keim]

I have never figured out why a restaurant would limit something like this. What’s the difference between charging $125.00 for corkage, or making $125 profit on a bottle off your list?

I can certainly understand limiting bottles when you have a $20 corkage policy. I rarely go out to a decent restaurant without bringing a bottle, and ALWAYS purchase a bottle off their list as an aperitif.

And what does everyone do about tipping the server on a bottle brought in through the corkage policy? I don’t tip on the actual value of the wine, but do throw in an extra 10% for the server when I bring a bottle.

[ybarselah]

I have never figured out why a restaurant would limit something like this. What’s the difference between charging $125.00 for corkage, or making $125 profit on a bottle off your list?

I can certainly understand limiting bottles when you have a $20 corkage policy. I rarely go out to a decent restaurant without bringing a bottle, and ALWAYS purchase a bottle off their list as an aperitif.

And what does everyone do about tipping the server on a bottle brought in through the corkage policy? I don’t tip on the actual value of the wine, but do throw in an extra 10% for the server when I bring a bottle.

this is a perfect post on the subject - thank you.

[Greg_K]

again, that’s a . no one - especially me - is arguing “run by an algorithm” (though pricing is another matter).

hospitality is run by hospitality professionals. your point about food accomodations is apt in this regard. have a corkage policy or don’t. it’s irrelevant. the policy you create will always be inherently arbitrary if you’re trying to have it “make sense” - which is where this thread started.

the consistent problem with these threads is that individuals project their own desires and very skewed views of the industry to pitch the perfect corkage policy without realizing that it’s arbitrary all the way down.

Sorry, we’re in the realm of performative contrarianism now with this line of argument. You can’t argue corkage policies are both irrelevant and should really be set at “no corkage”. Either they’re irrelevant or there’s a right place to set them.

irrelevant to the bottom line the way most folks on these threads think about them. see the post above by someone that thinks corkage is just another thing restaurants sell. the variety of expectations by a tiny sliver of the dining public is not at all worth the hassle. these ideas are completely consistent.

If you want to argue that from a logical perspective restaurants should just refuse to provide any additional services beyond literally serving you food off their menu and pouring you wine off their list (including corkage or menu substitutions), sure, I understand that argument. Of course, at that point, they’re no longer in the hospitality business.

[ybarselah]

If you want to argue that from a logical perspective restaurants should just refuse to provide any additional services beyond literally serving you food off their menu and pouring you wine off their list (including corkage or menu substitutions), sure, I understand that argument. Of course, at that point, they’re no longer in the hospitality business.

okay, this is a novel take. In what business are they?

[MattBerto]

Retail. No different than a gas station selling hot dogs (at least they let you choose what you put on it!)

[lleichtman]

I have never figured out why a restaurant would limit something like this. What’s the difference between charging $125.00 for corkage, or making $125 profit on a bottle off your list?

I can certainly understand limiting bottles when you have a $20 corkage policy. I rarely go out to a decent restaurant without bringing a bottle, and ALWAYS purchase a bottle off their list as an aperitif.

And what does everyone do about tipping the server on a bottle brought in through the corkage policy? I don’t tip on the actual value of the wine, but do throw in an extra 10% for the server when I bring a bottle.

Totally agree.

[Greg_K]

If you want to argue that from a logical perspective restaurants should just refuse to provide any additional services beyond literally serving you food off their menu and pouring you wine off their list (including corkage or menu substitutions), sure, I understand that argument. Of course, at that point, they’re no longer in the hospitality business.

okay, this is a novel take. In what business are they?

Commodity food service. Which is, of course, why no high end restaurants operate this way.

[Shan_A]

Can someone please post to Yaccov’s synopsis on why offering a corkage policy does not make sense?

He thinks corkage doesn’t make sense from an economic sense based on his analysis. While I don’t doubt that, that begs the question of why some very popular and successful restaurants which are always full and have excellent wine lists offer corkage, often at a very reasonable price, when they clearly don’t have to.

It would great to have a new thread on this subject. Maybe with the OP being the reasons it does not make sense (as best as I can glean from this thread, the idea is that corkage policies are hard to service + hard for a restaurant to price). I wonder if that logic extends to off-days, non-Michelin restaurants etc.

My personal experience would vehemently disagree with both assertions, and not totally sure why the personal experience is invalid:

1. I frequent restaurants with corkage policies, and since I tend to book last minute these are tables that would otherwise go unfilled. I put more tips in waiters pockets (which has value), make an emptier restaurant busier (which has value), and leverage some amount of food fixed cost. This ignores whether I bring others with me, or whether we/others have cocktails before or after a bottle of wine. I imagine those doing wine corkage are more apt to order higher value food items as well (Omasake, truffles, etc.).
2. Wine corkage is less of a hassle for wait staff + bartenders from a labor, servicing and cleaning standpoint.
3. We would not spend more on cocktails than the typical wine corkage fee.
4. We don’t pay the 3x markups on wines that many restaurants charge

Just the other day we went to a small restaurant with a group of 4 and have to think the corkage policy was a home run for them. We came and did two wine corks + 4 Omakase meals + ended up ordering a bottle of sake. The table otherwise would have gone empty (we only went because of corkage). The table next to use drank water. Two tables to the right of us dranks beers, which I have to think resulted in less of a check size than our table. The bar diners were drinking a couple beers at most. We boosted the waitstaff’s tip pool as well.

I don’t get why people repeatedly blare that its unethical to buy wine corkage when its offered, or that it’s costing them money. Should the diners who drank water or only one (or two) beers be similarly shamed? I.E., if it doesn’t make sense to offer wine corkage, why isn’t the corollary it doesn’t make sense to not require a 3 beer minimum for any consumers who aren’t partaking in wine corkage? [not asking to be sarcastic; genuinely curious.]

[Alan_Gottlieb]

I have never understood a limit of 2 bottles per table, no matter what the size of the party. A party of 6 has same limits as party of two. If going to limit why not no more than 1 bottle per 2 people at the table

[MChang]

again, that’s a . no one - especially me - is arguing “run by an algorithm” (though pricing is another matter).

hospitality is run by hospitality professionals. your point about food accomodations is apt in this regard. have a corkage policy or don’t. it’s irrelevant. the policy you create will always be inherently arbitrary if you’re trying to have it “make sense” - which is where this thread started.

the consistent problem with these threads is that individuals project their own desires and very skewed views of the industry to pitch the perfect corkage policy without realizing that it’s arbitrary all the way down.

Sorry, we’re in the realm of performative contrarianism now with this line of argument. You can’t argue corkage policies are both irrelevant and should really be set at “no corkage”. Either they’re irrelevant or there’s a right place to set them.

irrelevant to the bottom line the way most folks on these threads think about them. see the post above by someone that thinks corkage is just another thing restaurants sell. the variety of expectations by a tiny sliver of the dining public is not at all worth the hassle. these ideas are completely consistent.

The regulatory system also matters a lot. In PA, it’s very hard to find restaurants that don’t have corkage, in many cases free. If you didn’t offer it; it’d be a big competitive disadvantage.

[ybarselah]

If you want to argue that from a logical perspective restaurants should just refuse to provide any additional services beyond literally serving you food off their menu and pouring you wine off their list (including corkage or menu substitutions), sure, I understand that argument. Of course, at that point, they’re no longer in the hospitality business.

okay, this is a novel take. In what business are they?

Commodity food service. Which is, of course, why no high end restaurants operate this way.

ahh, so places like Daniel and Le Bernardin are commodity food service. Understood. I think we are all learning a lot here.

[ybarselah]

I have never understood a limit of 2 bottles per table, no matter what the size of the party. A party of 6 has same limits as party of two. If going to limit why not no more than 1 bottle per 2 people at the table

another perfect post. thank you!!

[Alex_Valdes]

okay, this is a novel take. In what business are they?

Commodity food service. Which is, of course, why no high end restaurants operate this way.

ahh, so places like Daniel and Le Bernardin are commodity food service. Understood. I think we are all learning a lot here.

Are you saying Daniel doesn’t have BYO?

[Mark_Golodetz]

I am not sure why, when the restaurant is fine with corkage (up to 2 bottles), we are yet again discussing whether corkage makes sense.

I am planning to bring six bottles, we are happy to do our own decanting etc, so we are not wasting restaurant personnel, etc.

Whether or not corkage makes sense, and I believe it does, and happy to argue in a separate unhijacked thread, but I am curious from a business point of view why a restaurant would turn down $500 of sheer profit for some arbitrary number of bottles that can be brought in?

[ybarselah]

Are you saying Daniel doesn’t have BYO?

just now called to confirm.

[Greg_K]

okay, this is a novel take. In what business are they?

Commodity food service. Which is, of course, why no high end restaurants operate this way.

ahh, so places like Daniel and Le Bernardin are commodity food service. Understood. I think we are all learning a lot here.

This is a silly comment, since all those places clearly provide services far beyond “this is our menu and wine list, we do nothing else”. You’re not interested in engaging in the topic seriously, you just want to be contrarian and throw up strawmen when confronted with the logical outcome of your silliness.

[DanielP]

okay, this is a novel take. In what business are they?

Commodity food service. Which is, of course, why no high end restaurants operate this way.

ahh, so places like Daniel and Le Bernardin are commodity food service. Understood. I think we are all learning a lot here.

Sarcasm doesn’t work as well when you fail you show an understanding of the rest of the post

[Greg_K]

Commodity food service. Which is, of course, why no high end restaurants operate this way.

ahh, so places like Daniel and Le Bernardin are commodity food service. Understood. I think we are all learning a lot here.

Are you saying Daniel doesn’t have BYO?

I’m pretty sure Daniel doesn’t (though it’s negotiable).

Of course, that wasn’t my point at all - I have no objection to a restaurant deciding that it doesn’t want to offer corkage. That’s a choice. My point was that a restaurant choosing not to offer anything beyond “this is our menu, this is our wine list, we will do nothing else” isn’t hospitality and no one does it. Corkage is just one of the many extras a restaurant could offer, and I’m not remotely pretending that a restaurant that doesn’t offer it is no longer providing hospitality. That’s Yaacov’s silly dodge.