Why char barrels at all?

WINE TALK
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Although I’d guess that the “benefits” (which I think there are, with moderation) were “discovered” by chance, from the cooperage practices…I do wonder, as someone asked, when and where people started purposefully charring them to different degrees and/or selecting specific woods for the purpose-- sort of like real barbecue experts choose their smoke sources. In Burgundy, at least, there are places that seem like science labs…this origin of wood for this cuvee; another for this one…etc etc…

Anyone know how/when/where people started using/manipulating this as a winemaking tool? (I’d guess someone just tasted a newer barrel’s wine and the same wine from a 2-3 year old barrel and said “wow”, but…I wonder where, when, etc…

22

I believe some barrels are formed by using steam.
Tom

23

I would agree, not the toast, but how NEW the oak is…seems to be a better thought

24

The Wiki article is actually quite good. Untoasted oak adds a lot of astringence and woody taste to the wine. Charring reduces the oak influence. You can’t compare time in barrel to amount of charring. They are different dimesions.

One area where uncharred oak is popular is during the fermentation of red wines. I’ve never tried it but I know it is supposed to be better than charred oak at this stage.

25

One selling point for untoasted oak is in chip/flour form used at the crusher- it is supposed to aid in polymerizing anthocyanins for better color. Would be the same in barrel, but a lot less hassle.

26

Or a Hockstaff complaint! rolleyes

Hey, just be glad there hasn’t been any mention of SQN on this thread…yet.

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SQN is overrated

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First, there are really two topics here.

One, where do all the chocolate/licorice/coffee notes in wine come from?? So much of this is not just toasted oak barrels but ripe fruit. When tasters started to see these qualities in wines during the '70s, the wines involved were usually from warmer climes, such as Amador County. Somebody pointed out to me that anethol, which is what gives licorice its flavor, is a precursor to ecstacy.

This explains Claude Kolm’s success with the ladies when he plies them with his stash of 76 Montevina Zin from Amador County.

Second, toasting and barrels: Heat must be applied to oak so that it can be bent. Heat can come in the form of wood fire, natural gas fire, steam, hot water, etc. The use of water is helpful as this cuts down on broken staves. At a cooperage like francois freres, where they use the fire from wood chips, you will see the coopers slapping wet towels on the barrels.

In the 70s many winemakers here insisted on barrels made over steam or natural gas because they did not want blisters, where VA etc could hide. Then a few wineries tried some francois freres barrels, the wines sold like hot cakes, and we were off to the races.
What is not well understood is the relationship between air drying of the wood and the nature of the toast. You may want to look at my website for a discussion of this.

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You may have to skip to the last item in FAQ.

Head toasting became popular when one cooperage, bereft of properly seasoned wood, decide to toast that part of the barrel as well. One of the cooperages I represent believes this is a Taliban plot. The other, seeing how successful Tonnellerie Mechante was, decided to try it.

Ultimately the quality of the oak itself will shine through. When Taransaud --reknowned for its well seasoned wood–was competing with a cooperage known for its toasting skill, I would have the sales mgr come over after I was sure my customers’ wines had been in barrel six months. When we did comparative tastings, Bitterness would have crept into the wines aged in Tonnellerie de Toast, while the wonderfulness of the Taransaud would have seeped into the wine. Four months earlier, when my competitor visited, the reverse was the case. The poor winemakers became convinced that we barrel salesmen had a power to make wines mad ein our barrels taste great while we were there. The reality is that each of us had picked the right time to make the sales visit.

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Mel-

Nice to see you here!

My avatar is exactly that, ground zero at one of those French tonneleries…note the closer barrels still with straight staves, being toasted over the fire pits. The one on the left has completed the toasting and has been outfitted with the iron rings on the bottom (and is curved).

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[shock.gif]

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Mel, was sterilization any part of the rationale as well? Nice to see you here!

34

Coopers slapping towels at cute girls in tanks probably won’t sterilize the wood. Indeed the past ten years have seen lots of barrels indicted on TCA and TeCA charges.

Sometimes I think the kind of wine I sold in the 70s is a dead issue, almost like bitter beer. Americans seem to like bitter beer…as long as it is sweet. Only the English seem to like this style of beer, much like they seem to be the only ones drinking older styles of wine.

My wife used to have an art studio in a building with many other artists.If one artist sells a painting of a dog being roasted over a fire, then next year everyone paints different animals being toasted, broiled, etc.

Winemakers and winery owners are a little bit the same. They see that Acacia is selling wine so other wineries buy Francois Freres barrels. Other cooperages see that Francois is selling lots of barrels so they up the ante and make barrels that are 500% toastier than Francois bbls, etc. Wineries see that everyone pretends to complain about their 14% al wines but that the wines sell out quickly.

Then they see Helen Turley getting lots of play so they mimic parts of her program.
At the end of the day people are making 15+ % alc wine, aged in heavily toasted barrels.

The results are wines that smell like torrefaction, taste sweet, and have no resemblance to the wines made in Bordeaux or Burgundy ten years earlier. Of course, the minute the winemakers in France see what is selling in America, they get on the bandwagon.

Hugh Johnson always said that the market made the wine. Anonymous said that people talk dry, buy sweet.

35

I like these flavors.

36

Me too.
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37

I would just like there to be more diversity. Almost all red wines of any pedigree have chared oak flavors. I wish there were more that dont so we could both be happy.

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“I would just like there to be more diversity. Almost all red wines of any pedigree have chared oak flavors. I wish there were more that dont so we could both be happy.”

Lots of wines without that in Italy, Portugal and Spain…

39

I hear that but alot of Italian and Spanish wines Ive had seem to do their best to taste like Napa or Bordeaux. I do beleive people when they say the more classically styled wines aren’t like that, I just need to be better educated on which ones those are.

To be honest my OP was really a rant about burgundy but I do beleive that its a growing problem around the world as diversity is stiffled in the face of homogenization.

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Good rule of thumb re Italy: If Suckling likes it it is oaked up. In Spain, if Big Jay likes it it is beyond hope. They aren’t really making spoof monsters in Portugal…yet.