Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

WINE TALK
41

Or taking it a step further: Italian wine.

42

As one of the few blacks on this board, my view of Lee is based of the actual history of the time! That view of the honorable general just doesn’t fly with me. That being said, I think this thread belongs in politics. Very little being discussed has much to do with wine.

43

Agreed. It’s not wine talk. At the very least it’s an Asylum thread, but politics is likely more appropriate.

44

+1 from another black board member. A thread casually discussing how Lee was an honorable gentleman except for the slave thing (apparently nobody knew it was wrong at the time) and the Civil war being about states rights has no business in a wine forum.

45

Hard to argue that this isn’t a wine thread.

And I agree that regardless of however complicated the choices Robert E Lee had to face or how he comported himself as the war wound down, eradication of slavery and honoring the commitment that “all (wo)men are created equal” is the line between the right choice and the wrong choice.

46

Well at least Tom got what he always wants…controversy and people going after each other.

47

Who said it was about states’ rights? (I refuted that myth. Don’t recall anyone else touching that topic.)

48

No, yes and yes. I find it completely understandable for Austrians wanting to revert the name back to Rotberger. As to Victor’s question about boycotting French wine due to Vichy collaboration, that is truly much more complicated. That formulation ignores the Free French forces and massive resistance during that period, just as the resistance narrative ignores Vichy.

49

I always find it very interesting to read people’s opinions on Germany and its Nazi past –how could it be otherwise-, or on General Lee, but this thread has indeed next to nothing to do with wine talk.

50

Rotburger is a horrible name for a product.

51

So why do you wish Lee had won? Do you think the Civil War was about horse and buggy regulation?

52

I know the story, I´m from Graz.

But what and whom would it help to boykott wines made from the Zweigelt grape today? Nobody, but it would do a lot of harm to many wine growers here who were not even born 75 years ago.
If you take the same scale worldwide nobody should buy South African wines anymore (apartheid system), US wines (genocide of Indians 19th century, suppression of black people …), Aussie wines (Aboriginees), even French wines (African colonies) … and a lot of others, not to speak of Chinese wines … or Sake … or eat Peking duck.
My father escaped almost in the last second from being recruted by the Nazis for the German army in 1945, he was 15 years old then. He hid in a haystack. If they had found him, I wouldn´t be here today.
I´m not complaining. Austria has done a lot over the last decades to compensate for the guilt of some of its citinzens.

If there is movement to return to the Rotburger name I´m not against it - (seriously it doesn´t matter much to me), but would that help against global warming, solve the refugee problem in Africa, bring peace to the golf region and make some politicians worldwide wiser ?

53
  • [stirthepothal.gif]
54

So call it OKburgunder.

55

Or “Beyond Gelt”…

56
  1. I would drink the wine. I don’t think I could drink it if it were called Hitlerwein or Himmlerwein, that would feel creepy.
  2. Don’t really care but if it bothers Austrians and they want to change it, go for it.
  3. If there were a vote in my community about removing Civil War Memorials from public spaces other than museums I would vote to remove them. I would also vote to remove the names of Confederates from public buildings and especially schools. An African American child having to attend a school named after someone who fought to keep their ancestors enslaved doesn’t sit right with me.

The Civil War was about many things, including states rights, but the main state right that was being fought over was the right to own another human being. The economic system, and power structure, of the south was based on slavery. Lee made the decision to fight for his home state and to fight for the right to own another human being. Wrong decision in my book and my vote would be that he doesn’t deserve to be honored in public places. Plus, as others have pointed out, most of these memorials were erected long after the civil war in response to the civil rights movement.

57

Thanks, Gerhard. I was hoping you’d offer up your thoughts.
I agree with you that it’s not a big deal. Let the winemakers continue to use Zweigelt and those who choose to change use Rotburger.
Tom

58

Born in Richmond, I was schooled in the hagiography of Lee, and he is, in fact, a very complicated subject. But there is a marked difference to me between revering someone who fought to maintain slavery – something I cannot except – and judging someone like Lee entirely with today’s moral standards. What he did was unforgivable, and I for one do not forgive him, even if he thought “the cause” of state’s rights was “otherwise” worthwhile; there was no “otherwise.” But I also think we need to view Lee and every historical figure in a nuanced way.

The same can be said, by the way, for every US president who owned slaves, failed to address slavery, supported the mass extermination and relocation of native Americans and the outright theft of their lands, sponsored American imperialism abroad, gladly administered a blatantly discriminatory federal government workforce and military, experimented on African American citizens by giving them diseases to “see what happened,” spied on US citizens in the civil rights era or because of their religion etc. etc etc. There aren’t many “pure” US Presidents left, and I am not willing to pull down the Jefferson Memorial.

59

Neal, how would you feel if you went to Germany and saw a statue commemorating Rommel? And, Rommel was part of, or at knew about, the plot to kill Hitler.

Did Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, etc., ever fight a war against the US? Do you think the time has come for the south (and I grew up in Georgia, went to college in NC and law school in Virginia) to stop fighting the Civil War?

As I said above, other than at battlefields, I would like to see these statues taken down in both the North and the South. To me, they have no place in town squares, college campuses, etc. Most were put up years after the war and for political reasons and it is time for them to come down.

The Jefferson Memorial was not erected as part of an effort to promulgate John Crow laws. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, was President (where negotiated the Louisiana Purchase), etc. What did Lee do to deserve a statue other than rebel against his country to preserve slavery.

60

Steiner was very much racist. Does that stop people from drinking biodynamic wines?