If Balancians starts being used around here I’m doing an open letter or going up in the tower with a Remington.
Evan,
As you well know, I follow you online and respect the tough, honest, impartial intellectuallism that you bring to those efforts online. — And I promise you, I wouldn’t feel that same way if you were as lax in those efforts as you are in your judgement of the comments that both Kevin and Raj made.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Adam,
My point in starting this thread was to discuss Harvey’s out of touch and dismissive attitude toward a genre of wine. None of your posts have anything to do with that. I realize you would rather discuss my “alcohol and kool aid” quote by taking it out of context. That sentence was not about any winery or even a specific wine style. That context is entirely your editorial contribution. I assume this is because you would rather characterize my post as “attacking” defenseless wineries rather than defending wineries from Harvey’s attacks.
Harvey states he prefers ripe wine, my point is that there is a limit to all good things. Don’t you think overly ripe wine can taste hot and alcoholic? Or could taste tart if acidified and lacking natural acidity?
My point (not the one you want to characterize me as making) was that Harvey finds no problem with these sorts of faults (ie faults of over-ripeness) yet seems to find all sorts of pitfalls with wines made in a different style. His comments show that he really doesn’t even know how to think about or appreciate wines like these yet he feels very confident in his conclusions. That’s a brutal combination.
Adam,
The following is not a flippant statement: It must drive you nuts, consistently making strong points and all too rarely getting concessions on those points. I’m not trying to put you in that position again. I concede that Kevin crossed a line; I’m simply giving him some credit for being self aware enough to offer a kind of disclaimer. Clearly, you feel that doesn’t soften the blow, and I suppose you’d make the point: If you’re surly enough to hyperbolize, don’t post.
I think his point about Harvey’s proclivities is fair. I made roughly the same one in this thread. Big wines are good; smaller wines CAN be good, but only occasionally. That’s the framework, and I happen to feel it’s askew. This has nothing to do, by the way, with Spectator; I think they employ some of the finest writers and workers in the wine world, and contrary to the cynicism, I think they’re a big positive on the scene. I’m a happy subscriber. No agenda.
My son is named Rhys, which, while having nothing to do with the wines, makes me only happier to lay down Rhys wines for his future. I’ve never met Kevin nor spoken to him. I like what I’ve read, and I certainly like what I taste from Rhys.
I don’t enjoy Harlan Cab, but I don’t think it’s Vodka. Not hardly. Just not a style that suits me in any fashion. I happily accept that it’s heavily coveted.
As for Raj, you think I’m being charitable?
Kevin,
Gimme a break. You state Harvey’s “out of touch and dismissive attitude to a genre of wine” without once mentioning that he liked the wines of Liocco, Red Car, Kutch, Failla, Calera, Sandhi, Mount Eden, and Wind Gap. You say I am taking it out of context…your comments take “out of context” to a whole new level. He liked wines from 8 out of 28 wineries…which as a critic at a sizeable tasting, isnn’t all that bad, IMO. But you make it sound like he thought they were all awful.
Do I think overly ripe wine can taste hot and alcoholic? Of course. Or if the acidification was done excessively or at the wrong time could they taste tart? Of course. I also think that wines can taste underripe as well. But if I replaced your “bitter burn of vodka accentuated by sharp Kool aid-like tartaric additions” with “watered down, brocolli flavored swill that reeks of jalapeno” I’d never hear the end of the comments. Your willingness to accept double standards is, IMO, shockingly intellectually dishonest.
If your commment was about wineries or wine styles then what in the world was it about?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Your double standard
Hopefully consumers become more educated with regards to the many different styles of wine and therefore, the impact of these “powerful” critics diminishes. I’ve learned that I almost always don’t enjoy Harvey Steiman’s high scoring wines, so I just avoid buying them.
Beau -
What you’re describing is consistency, which is the first and most important attribute in a wine critic. When James Suckling would give a Brunello 96, it was not likely to square with my taste. When he gave a Brunello 88, it was a green light. Harvey has obviously been consistent enough to be helpful, and that’s a valuable service, no?
Evan,
So, why, based on 1 column do you think Harvey’s proclivities are askew? I have truly, only my own experience with Harvey judging my wines. We have 21 Oregon Pinot Noir that he has rated 90 or higher (out of 54 Oregon wines he has reviewed from us). 13 of those 21 have been below 14% alcohol. So, when you say that he prefers big wines, based on the tasting and the blog he wrote, I say that “big” and “balanced” are not necessarily the same thing and my own personal experience is that, over a long number of vintages, he has not always prefered our most ripe wines. But I also believe that wines truly can be under ripe and should someone aim to produce a lower ripeness wine, the odds that that aim would result in an under ripe wine was increased in vintages like 2010 and certainly 2011 in CA. I was not at the IPOB tasting (nor was Kevin, I don’t think, from his comments) so I cannnot agree or disagree with Harvey’s comments on the specific wines, but the idea that some of them were under ripe isn’t a shock given the vintages currently available. I also have to say that I generally have liked the wines from the wineries that he singled out (had a bottle of 2010 Failla Hirsch on February 13 with DIanna for our early Valentine’s Dinner at Barndiva…was wonderful) so I can’t disagree with him on the wines he singled out positively.
As far Raj, I think he is one of the most talented tasters I have ever tasted with…but I think his comments, as reported on Blake’s blog, were over the top. Assuming they were reported correctly, I wouldn’t have the temerity to say imply that I should “change everyone.”
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Adam - Not based on one column. I’m an avid reader.
I think he’s consistent, and I think readers should be pleased about that.
Honestly, if were one to look at ripeness levels alone, I wouldn’t consider Harvey to be that consistent (nor quite frankly, would I want a critic to be consistent on such a narrow frame). If you look at the Oregon Pinots he’s rated 95 or higher you will certainly find your Archery Summits and Domaine Serene’s (based on my palate, riper styled wines generally) but you also find Ayoub, King Estate, Roco, King Estate, and a couple of Evening Lands. None of which I generally find to be on the riper side of the scale (these are general comments about the wineries, no doubt).
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Adam,
Reading clearly depends a lot on your perspective. You read Harvey’s blog and conclude he “liked wines from 8 of 28 wineries”. Meanwhile, I see nothing but faint praise and left handed compliments.
Harvey clearly states that he sees many risks and difficulties with the styles he sees at IPOB. Meanwhile, I can’t recall Steiman or Laube ever writing about the risks of “over-doing it”. Maybe they don’t see any?
BTW, your taking of a sentence fragment here and posting it on the WS site brings “taking something out of context” to a whole new (unseemly) level.
Kevin,
So if your comment wasn’t about a winery or even wine styles then what was it about? Maybe my perspective is clouded, but reading the words, that certainly seems like what they were directed towards. IMO, if you say something then go ahead and own it or simply say that you went too far. It is okay to do the latter, we’ve all done it.
As I said before, take issue all you want with Harvey’s other comments. I am not here to defend them, he’s more than capable of doing that himself. I can only state my experience with his reviews of my wines, which don’t match up with your take on his perspective. But I am just one winery and I wasn’t at the tasting so I can’t comment on those wines specifically. I don’t believe you were either (correct?), so I personally don’t feel confident defending or taking to task wines I haven’t largely tasted (other than saying I like many of the wines I’ve tasted from the producers Harvey mentions liking).
Let me point out one other thing. When Allen Meadows was interviewed by Steve Heimoff and was asked,
"So if I’m a California producer and my wine happens to be 15.5%, should I say, “I’m not going to send it to Meadows because he’s going to give it a low score?” He responded by saying, “Well, chances are good it’s not going to get a great score.” So, while you can feel comfortable claiming that Steiman or Laube don’t ever write about the risks of overdoing it, you certainly wouldn’t find either one of them saying that a wine isn’t likely to get a great score based on alcohol level alone. But I never saw you taking issue with those type of comments.
Finally, I guess it is okay for you to take parts of Harvey’s blog out of context and post it over here, but it isnt’ okay for me to take your post and mention it over there. Really?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Unca Sid,
Honestly, at 15.5+% alcohol, do you truly believe that a pinot at that alcohol level is not overblown?
TTT
Paul,
I’d be happy to point you to the blind Siduri tasting that Blake Gray and I undertook where he found at 16% alcohol Pinot Noir to be below 14%.
But, without regard to whether or not I.believe it can happen frequently or it was an odd anomaly, I think a wine should be judged by tasting it rather.than.by looking at a number on the label.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
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Kevin,
So do you not agree that there are many risks and difficulties with producing wines of ‘ripeness’ yet at lower alcohol levels? If not, then shouldn’t it be ‘easy’ and everyone would be doing it?
And I would argue that there are difficulties in producing balanced wines at higher alcohol levels - it certainly can be and is done often, but it doesn’t mean it’s easy either . . .
Cheers.
I dunno. For me I consider both Ayoub and Roco to be on the riper side in Oregon. King Estate is way the hell down by Eugene and I have not tasted their stuff often. Evening Land is all over the map for me. Their CA stuff certainly has been big and ripe…
This. And who the hell drinks King Estate?
Damn, Adam. I shudder to think what you’d opine about Brick House or Eyrie. You haven’t been breakfasting on Kim Chi with Harvey, have you? 
This sentence of Steiman’s seems to get to the heart of where he and I fundamentally disagree:
"They just need to get more consistent at getting the depth of flavor and length on the palate that distinguishes great wines made from any grape anywhere. " (emphasis in boldface added by me)
For my palate, the IPOB wines don’t lack depth of flavor or length on the palate at all. But for Steiman to focus on those characteristics as his benchmarks for greatness tells me that he, like his colleague Laube, fundamentally misunderstands pinot noir. What strikes them as depth of flavor or length on the palate ends up translating into a preference for power and concentration, at the expense of finesse and delicacy, which to me are precisely the characteristics that make pinot noir great, and distinctive. The quality of the flavors (not overripe and stewed) matter to me more than power, and in the wines I like, there’s no lack of depth of flavor, you just need to have the ability to listen for flavors that are not shouted, and maybe sometimes even whispered. What Steiman senses as sharp acidity is precisely what I value and consder to be lively juiciness, and sometimes, an exciting tension. I’d be happy to put any of my chosen wines up against his, even while they are young, but especially with a decade or more of age on them.
But really, as I read the back and forth between Kevin and Adam, I keep coming back to the notion that “the proof is in the pudding.” I can respect both Kevin and Adam as smart guys who can defend their own words and their own wines cogently. But those words don’t factor in at all into which of their wines I buy, only what’s in the bottle.
When it comes to what’s in the bottle, all I can say is that I, and a friend of mine who went with me to last year’s IPOB tasting in New York, were struck by how amazingly high the quality across the board was. I’m not concerned with what words they use in the event’s title, or in the PR for it. I’m more concerned that there seems to be no IPOB tasting in New York this year? I want what’s in the bottle.
Very reasonable Adam. From an AFWE consumer perspective…in practice, often impractical.
Walking in to a wine shop and faced with an otherwise uninformed choice between 2 Cali PNs, one at 13.5% and one at 15.5%, there’s no question which I’d likely buy. Admittedly, it could be the wrong decision but it becomes a matter of probabilities…and I like the odds. A similarly uninformed consumer, preferring riper richer Pinots, should probably make the opposite choice.
You know the Cali PN market better than most. Are bigger ripe Cali PNs in any danger of a market collapse? Can Raj Parr control consumer demand?
It seems like an unending uphill battle for Cali winemakers making lower alcohol PNs, despite the support of a somewhat vocal minority. Big ripe PNs largely compete against themselves. “Low test” PNs wind up competing against Burgundy.
RT