Burghound #43 ... No Good Premox News

WINE TALK
21

It’s been awhile, maybe they forgot [snort.gif]

22

Rick…you always amazed me with your logic. [welldone.gif]

One of the reasons why the Committee of Montrachet threw one of the members out of their meeting room during a recently regular meeting when he suggested screwcrap.

Stuart…could give you more details. [wink.gif]

23

Weren’t they using corks “pre-1995 or so”? deadhorse

24

Good point.

25

Yes. And your point is… what? I’m not the one arguing for screwcaps.

26

Yes…they were using corks pre-1995 or so.

But I do not quite remember when US market prefers non filter, no fining… [drinkers.gif]

27

So how about (clears throat) going back to what they were doing then???

You sounded like answering your question would (clears throat [snort.gif] ?) solve the problem.

So, I gave an answer about what they were “doing then”? Wasn’t that your question?

I think there are way too many variables-- in the winery, the vineyard and the world, including the climate…most of which they’ve identified…to use that simplistic of an answer…

Maybe I missed your point on the “clears throat”…what was it?

28

Oh… ok…

My point was that pre-95 we don’t really seem to have premox issues. So, simplistically, if they used the winemaking techniques that were then in use AND if those techniques are part or all of the issue, the issue should resolve itself. I’m assuming here that the issue is multifactorial and the winemaking techniques play a significant part in it. For example, the whole peroxided cork supposition also involved producers who supposedly had lowered sulfer levels in order to make the wines more approachable young and the combination of the two left the wine with little to no protection against oxidation.

Now, if the issue were SOLELY the cork, then you’re right - reverting to pre-1995 techniques wouldn’t help. But if someone tells me that they have a problem and that it started at time X, my first level recommendation is going to be to go back to what they were doing before that problem existed to see if that resolves the issue.

As I see it, there are really three broad possibilities:

  1. The problem is completely due to changes in winemaking/viticulture. In this case, my recommendation would solve the issue (presuming it’s possible to revert to pre-95 techniques in both the vineyard and cellar).

  2. The problem is completely due to changes in corks. My recommendation wouldn’t solve anything. In that case, you either move back to a cork that’s made as it was pre-1995 (i.e. not corks that are treated in various ways that have arisen since then) or you move away from corks.

  3. The problem is both closure and winemaking related. In this case, reverting to pre-1995 techniques may solve the issue. Even if the closure still exposes the wine to some elevated chance of premox you can eliminate the vulnerability that’s caused by winemaking/viticultural practices. Whether this would be a significant move or a trivial one I don’t know.

There’s a fourth potential cause, the idea that this is related to the vintage character - the so-called ‘unripe dominating acidity’ hypothesis. Rovani raised this and still, I think, believes it but has never answered why we a) see premox in other vintages and not just 1996 and b) why some bottles even in the same case will be bad and others will be fine. I don’t think we can discount vintage entirely - it’s possible that combined with other factors the character of the vintage plays into this - but it doesn’t seem that it’s a primary cause of the problem. After all, if vintage character was the sole reason behind this issue why didn’t we see premox in high acid vintages previously and why don’t all of the bottles from a given producer and vineyard show this fault?

29

This got my attention. I’d like to hear other folks comment on it

30

Chris - I think Berry’s somewhat right. One of the supposed changes in the mid-1990s was the reduction in S02 levels to make the wines show better on release. The problem is that if you bought 1996s and beyond assuming that they were going to age in a similar manner to prior vintages, you got screwed.

31

Having not really followed this topic too closely, my thoughts are…

1. It can’t possibly be basic winemaking techniques. Since when has Burgundy EVER moved en masse to change their winemaking methods, much less all in 1995? Yet it seems the whole area is increasingly effected by this. And what possible winemaking techniques can they be employing that are no done elsewhere yet the premox issue is not occurring? Sounds like there are varying techniques but essentially the same as here.

2. It can’t possibly be the corks. Again, if it were then this would be happening all over the place. Unless White Burg producers all source different corks specifically for their whites and those cork producers are not exporting their corks to the USA and elsewhere. Seriously doubt that. Also, corks are tested by the wineries before use and we are not talking about small, no-name wineries but ones that can afford to test them every which way. If it was the corks, we would already know. Not only that, it would be happening here and also there with their reds.

Has anyone ever tested the GRAPES (not the wine) in the region to see if perhaps some weird kind of bacteria is spreading from some other source? I am sure when Phylloxera hit, people were scratching their heads for a few years before figuring out what the cause was. Maybe something is on the grapes in that SPECIFIC region and is not affecting the quality until a few years after harvest. Just a thought.

32

I think this somewhat disregards the producers who have low incidents of premox and high sulfur but still have big scores… i.e. Roulot/Leflaive. Both wines have heavy hints of flint/so2 for awhile.

33

This is what I’ve been wondering, too.
Hard to believe Burgundy is capable of losing that institutional knowledge.

34

Roy - I’ve heard speculation on soil deficiencies, etc too. Of course, if that’s the case none of my post above would help. But we’re now FIFTEEN vintages past the one where this first showed up. The 95s and 96s have had issues for a good long while. And science is way more advanced that when phylloxera happened. So I’d hope that they’ve tested all that. Then again… I dont actually care since I’m not buying white Burg and never will again.

35

1995…1996… hey! Isn’t that about when Biodynamics started to take hold? [stirthepothal.gif] [tease.gif]

36

But then Leflaive has been biod for a long time, even before then. And has shown the least issues.

37

Has the issue of the treatment of barrel staves been reviewed or … deadhorse

38

One “problem” is that isolating factors that might be working in combo is easier said than done.

And…it’s not that long that anyone has been really grappling with the issue. When I was last there, in 2007, a couple of white wine makers were just deciding to replace their silicone-covered corks with non-silicone (just parrafin) because they felt that the rigid corks with silicone was letting the preservative SO2 escape. I don’t think the “industry” had really released any thoughts yet, either. So, though, the phenomenon was well known by say 2002-3…no one seemed to be addressing the cause or solutions until much later.

Figuring it out sound like it should/could be fairly easy, but it isn’t – at all.

Many many theories about factors abound. But, most are only anectdotal or supposition, unfortunately. And, part of the problem of figuring it out is that the industry there is filled with smaller entities…and even the bigger ones are not that big by “big” standards…so…the research is probably not that easy to have done.

39

I’m with Roger on this - enjoy the wines too much to eliminate them from my purchases. Allen Meadows also recommends
drinking white Burgundies earlier, and I tend to follow that.

[scratch.gif] Thus far I haven’t been able to see any explanation for erratic instances of this early oxidation as between bottles of the same
wine in a single case. Anyone have an explanation?

Hank [cheers.gif]

40

I think the “wisdom” is that it has to be the closures, Hank. The wine is vulnerable and the closures determine when any given bottle might go bad.

(Makes sense, too. In 2007 Gerard Boudot told me that he had cases where a proportion was oxidized…and he measured the SO2 in the bad and good ones. The levels were right in the good ones…and the SO2 gone in the bad ones. At the time, he thought the silicone-coatings made the corks too rigid to for a reliable seal. Of course, the closures are not the whole story…if they are the “story” on your query.)