2005 v 2006 Allemand Reynard

[CFu]

@Ramon C

My experience with 90s Allemand were that they were not big, and to some extent, not clunky either. If I recall correctly, 1996 might be the exception as I remember that to be quite on the wild/stern/clunky side. But for the most part, I thought that the 90s I had were more on the elegant and finesse side of things with less rusticity and wildness, and this is relative to the other Cornas wines from the same era. I haven’t had the urge to pull from the offsite Allemands from 2000s fearing that they’ll just be too young for my taste. But when I had them earlier, except the 2007/2008 Reynard which I thought were big and backward, I agree that they maintained the finesse and elegance that I noted from the 90s wines

I just don’t find the wines as polished from the 90s as they are now. The wines aren’t as bright and sauve. They are delicious wines no doubt but I think as a complete wine the last ten plus vintages have been out of the ballpark.

I definitely don’t think they were wild and rustic in the 90s. Just a little less focused is all, still delicious wines. I know I’m not alone in this sentiment.

[CFu]

@Nathan V.

@c fu

@Jayson Cohen

Thanks so much for the notes.

What’s wrong with pre-2004 Allemand (other than price)?

nothing is wrong. They are still very good wines. I think the 98 is drinking fantastic and the 89 is an eyes in the back of the head wine, but I don’t think he’s hit to the point where his wines are now. There’s a different purity to the wines now. They aren’t quite as clunky and big. Really in the zone. A good comparison is actually the wines we had next to it, the Mugneret Gibourg, another producer that I don’t feel really was in their stride in the 80s/90s as the wines don’t stand out as they do now.

The 1995 Chaillots I had last week would disagree with that assessment. The Mugneret wines are better than ever, but bottles from the 80s at the Tahn Dihn in the mid-90s were what started my addiction to the wines. Likewise, when I first started with Allemand in 1994 vintage it was immediately apparent that something interesting was happening. This bottle 1995 Chaillot had an almost Burgundian grace with real verve and length but was style readily identifiable as Cornas. Incidentally, I would call Verset wines wild and sauvage and the Juge wines idiosyncratic and not really inspiring to me.

I never said pre 04 allemand sucked. I just find them better now than before. They were still very good but not with the same elegance and polish as they do now.


Juge is another producer that I found really variable in the 80s/90s bottlings but absolutely rocking 03 on (outside of the 04 Olga). But what I’ve been told was there was a change in vineyard sourcing in 99 that necessitated a change in style as well. But if you don’t like juge… I dunno man

We will definitely have to agree to disagree on the MG . For some reason I’ve been inundated in the past couple of years with back vintage Gibourg at tastings/gatherings from all different sources (with one friend with at least 300+ bottles of assorted MG from the 80s to early 90s) Maybe in their youth they were nice but from AOC up to grand cru dating back to 83 they been a bit too typical to me outside of a small handful of bottlings.

[Jayson_Cohen]

Nathan, when you write about Juge, it surprises me. On which wines and vintages is this based?

[Ramon_C]

[quote=“Jay Miller”]**And many thanks to nathan who introduced me to the wines at a long ago dinner at Inside restaurant around 20 years ago when he opened some 1994s.[/**quote]

I suppose by 6 degrees of separation, I’ll have to add my +1 on this. That’s because Jay brought one of my first early Allemand, a 1995 Reynard, to a dinner tasting many, many moons ago, that certainly added to my fascination with his wines then.

[Michael_Lewis]

@Nathan V.

@Michael Lewis

While I generally agree that there was no fundamental change in winemaking by Allemand circa 2004, I will give Charlie a bit of help here by mentioning that I had heard (and this is just rumor, not a fact) that he bought new barrels for the 2001 vintage (perhaps not replacing everything, but maybe just some old barrels or merely adding some new ones to increase capacity). 2002 was a horrible vintage in Cornas. 2003 was, of course, 2003 (although Allemand did okay all things considered). So 2004 does kind of mark a point when both (1) the vintages returned to normalcy and (2) the new barrels had been used a few times. It’s also possible that if he was using some pretty old barrels in the late 1990s (thus needing to replace them in 2001), that the wines from 2004 onward may show slightly differently (and whether that is good or not can be the subject of debate, but it would explain Charlie’s reaction).

This is all just conjecture of course. f*ck if I know anything.

When did he incorporate the Verset vines? For the life of me, I can’t remember.

Well Verset sold different parcels over a period of time from 2000-2003, and then made his last official vintage with what remained in 2005 or 2006. I can’t remember exactly when Allemand acquired his vines from Verset, but I would not be surprised if that was in the 2000-2003 period, which is another interesting point to consider in evaluating Charlie’s reaction about the 2004s. Perhaps more interesting than the point about the barrels.

[Mike_Evans]

According to Rare Wine Co., Verset sold a parcel of Reynard to Allemand in the late 1980s.

[Ramon_C]

@Michael Lewis

@Nathan V.

@Michael Lewis

While I generally agree that there was no fundamental change in winemaking by Allemand circa 2004, I will give Charlie a bit of help here by mentioning that I had heard (and this is just rumor, not a fact) that he bought new barrels for the 2001 vintage (perhaps not replacing everything, but maybe just some old barrels or merely adding some new ones to increase capacity). 2002 was a horrible vintage in Cornas. 2003 was, of course, 2003 (although Allemand did okay all things considered). So 2004 does kind of mark a point when both (1) the vintages returned to normalcy and (2) the new barrels had been used a few times. It’s also possible that if he was using some pretty old barrels in the late 1990s (thus needing to replace them in 2001), that the wines from 2004 onward may show slightly differently (and whether that is good or not can be the subject of debate, but it would explain Charlie’s reaction).

This is all just conjecture of course. f*ck if I know anything.

When did he incorporate the Verset vines? For the life of me, I can’t remember.

Well Verset sold different parcels over a period of time from 2000-2003, and then made his last official vintage with what remained in 2005 or 2006. I can’t remember exactly when Allemand acquired his vines from Verset, but I would not be surprised if that was in the 2000-2003 period, which is another interesting point to consider in evaluating Charlie’s reaction about the 2004s. Perhaps more interesting than the point about the barrels.

A little vague with the historical documentation online, but it appears that Allemand was working for both Michel and Verset in the late 80’s, and that’s when Verset decided to wind down and start selling off his vineyards. It appears that at that point in the late 80s when Verset’s Reynard parcel was sold to Allemand.

[Michael_Lewis]

@Ramon C

@Michael Lewis

@Nathan V.

When did he incorporate the Verset vines? For the life of me, I can’t remember.

Well Verset sold different parcels over a period of time from 2000-2003, and then made his last official vintage with what remained in 2005 or 2006. I can’t remember exactly when Allemand acquired his vines from Verset, but I would not be surprised if that was in the 2000-2003 period, which is another interesting point to consider in evaluating Charlie’s reaction about the 2004s. Perhaps more interesting than the point about the barrels.

A little vague with the historical documentation online, but it appears that Allemand was working for both Michel and Verset in the late 80’s, and that’s when Verset decided to wind down and start selling off his vineyards. It appears that at that point in the late 80s when Verset’s Reynard parcel was sold to Allemand.

Ahh, okay, it is certainly possible Verset sold some vines to Allemand much earlier than he sold his other parcels when he eventually decided to wind it down for good in the early- to mid-2000s. That would mean it is likely not the Verset vines that explain Charlie’s reaction to the 2004 and later Allemand wines, so we are back to the barrels for an explanation, if there is one at all.

[Fred_C]

@Michael Lewis

Ahh, okay, it is certainly possible Verset sold some vines to Allemand much earlier than he sold his other parcels when he eventually decided to wind it down for good in the early- to mid-2000s. That would mean it is likely not the Verset vines that explain Charlie’s reaction to the 2004 and later Allemand wines, so we are back to the barrels for an explanation, if there is one at all.

Charlie just prefers oak and likes to drink them young?

[Nathan_V]

@Jayson Cohen

Nathan, when you write about Juge, it surprises me. On which wines and vintages is this based?

Formative. Tons from the 80s through the 90s. Cuvée C, SC what have you. I have them from time to time in the contemporary era and I like them just fine, just not enough to seek them out. I’m much more interested in what Eric is up to, for example (and I’m biased in this regard, I know). I have another producer I’m following more closely than I did in the past, but hesitate to out them.

[CFu]

@Nathan V.

@Jayson Cohen

Nathan, when you write about Juge, it surprises me. On which wines and vintages is this based?

Formative. Tons from the 80s through the 90s. Cuvée C, SC what have you. I have them from time to time in the contemporary era and I like them just fine, just not enough to seek them out. I’m much more interested in what Eric is up to, for example (and I’m biased in this regard, I know). I have another producer I’m following more closely than I did in the past, but hesitate to out them.

Banned for withholding valuable information.

[Nathan_V]

@c fu

@Nathan V.

@c fu

nothing is wrong. They are still very good wines. I think the 98 is drinking fantastic and the 89 is an eyes in the back of the head wine, but I don’t think he’s hit to the point where his wines are now. There’s a different purity to the wines now. They aren’t quite as clunky and big. Really in the zone. A good comparison is actually the wines we had next to it, the Mugneret Gibourg, another producer that I don’t feel really was in their stride in the 80s/90s as the wines don’t stand out as they do now.

The 1995 Chaillots I had last week would disagree with that assessment. The Mugneret wines are better than ever, but bottles from the 80s at the Tahn Dihn in the mid-90s were what started my addiction to the wines. Likewise, when I first started with Allemand in 1994 vintage it was immediately apparent that something interesting was happening. This bottle 1995 Chaillot had an almost Burgundian grace with real verve and length but was style readily identifiable as Cornas. Incidentally, I would call Verset wines wild and sauvage and the Juge wines idiosyncratic and not really inspiring to me.

I never said pre 04 allemand sucked. I just find them better now than before. They were still very good but not with the same elegance and polish as they do now.


Juge is another producer that I found really variable in the 80s/90s bottlings but absolutely rocking 03 on (outside of the 04 Olga). But what I’ve been told was there was a change in vineyard sourcing in 99 that necessitated a change in style as well. But if you don’t like juge… I dunno man

We will definitely have to agree to disagree on the MG . For some reason I’ve been inundated in the past couple of years with back vintage Gibourg at tastings/gatherings from all different sources (with one friend with at least 300+ bottles of assorted MG from the 80s to early 90s) Maybe in their youth they were nice but from AOC up to grand cru dating back to 83 they been a bit too typical to me outside of a small handful of bottlings.

My bottle of Chaillots was quite elegant. Maybe it doesn’t have the same silkiness of fruit that the newer vintages have (and who knows why that is) but no one at the table would describe it as clunky. How many angels can fance on the ehad of a pin anyway.

My Juge opinions formed with the 80s and 90s but I’ve had the wines since. For me they were a clear step below Verset, Clape and Allemand and even Michel. Again, they’re good but I’m focused elsewhere. How much syrah can one family drink?

Oh, I think there is a general consensus that the sisters wines are a significant step up from the father. It’s just that I was weaned on the wines and while they were different they could also be excellent. More blocky in the style of the time (this is true for almost everyone).

[Nathan_V]

@Michael Lewis

@Nathan V.

@Michael Lewis

While I generally agree that there was no fundamental change in winemaking by Allemand circa 2004, I will give Charlie a bit of help here by mentioning that I had heard (and this is just rumor, not a fact) that he bought new barrels for the 2001 vintage (perhaps not replacing everything, but maybe just some old barrels or merely adding some new ones to increase capacity). 2002 was a horrible vintage in Cornas. 2003 was, of course, 2003 (although Allemand did okay all things considered). So 2004 does kind of mark a point when both (1) the vintages returned to normalcy and (2) the new barrels had been used a few times. It’s also possible that if he was using some pretty old barrels in the late 1990s (thus needing to replace them in 2001), that the wines from 2004 onward may show slightly differently (and whether that is good or not can be the subject of debate, but it would explain Charlie’s reaction).

This is all just conjecture of course. f*ck if I know anything.

When did he incorporate the Verset vines? For the life of me, I can’t remember.

Well Verset sold different parcels over a period of time from 2000-2003, and then made his last official vintage with what remained in 2005 or 2006. I can’t remember exactly when Allemand acquired his vines from Verset, but I would not be surprised if that was in the 2000-2003 period, which is another interesting point to consider in evaluating Charlie’s reaction about the 2004s. Perhaps more interesting than the point about the barrels.

Would this be in JLL? I don’t own it.

[Charles_Zedlewski]

@Ramon C

Well Verset sold different parcels over a period of time from 2000-2003, and then made his last official vintage with what remained in 2005 or 2006. I can’t remember exactly when Allemand acquired his vines from Verset, but I would not be surprised if that was in the 2000-2003 period, which is another interesting point to consider in evaluating Charlie’s reaction about the 2004s. Perhaps more interesting than the point about the barrels.

This is useful history and would most likely explain the differences to me. My basis for comparison is 2001 => 2012 vintages. The 01’s are very good. If I were offered one, I’d happily drink it. But for the same money, I’d rather drink an '06 and, with more age, an '09, '10 or '12.

What I notice about the '01s is they don’t have quite the same depth & polish of some of these later vintages. The absence of a Reynard parcel would be a very plausible explanation for the difference. In that same vein, the other thing I notice about the '06’s is not so much daylight between the Chaillot and the Reynard vs those same two wines in 2012. Again, being short one Reynard parcel would seem to make sense.

[Jayson_Cohen]

@Nathan V.

@Jayson Cohen

Nathan, when you write about Juge, it surprises me. On which wines and vintages is this based?

Formative. Tons from the 80s through the 90s. Cuvée C, SC what have you. I have them from time to time in the contemporary era and I like them just fine, just not enough to seek them out. I’m much more interested in what Eric is up to, for example (and I’m biased in this regard, I know). I have another producer I’m following more closely than I did in the past, but hesitate to out them.

Don’t need to out them. I could probably guess one of about a handful but I won’t.

So it must be a stylistic thing re: Juge. But still this is interesting given your palate and how good I think the wines have been since the mid-90s.

I’ve wondered what is going into the single wine he makes now, beyond just his best old vines as reported on Polaner’s site. I think it is probably the oldest vines that were previously used for the SC bottling before 2002. Eric probably knows. Maybe Charlie does.

[Alan_Rath]

Great post and thread, Charlie. Your description of 05 vs 06 is exactly the way I would expect the wines to show right now (with the caveat that, precisely because of this, I haven’t touched any of my few 05s since release, though I have tasted them once or twice in the interim).

As for 2001, 2004, changes in vineyard sources, barrels or winemaking, I can’t offer much of value. Except that the times I have had 2004 and 2001 side by side, I always felt 2001 to be the stronger vintage, with 2004 being one of Allemand’s (slightly) more refined and elegatnt performances. I had 2006 and 2000 together at a dinner last year, where the 2000 was right up there with the 2006. A 99 Chaillot in 2014 was still beautifully youthful, vibrant, with great acidity. I guess I’m saying that I can’t draw any conclusions about changes over that period between, say, 99 and 04.

[Alan_Rath]

@Charles Zedlewski

What I notice about the '01s is they don’t have quite the same depth & polish of some of these later vintages. The absence of a Reynard parcel would be a very plausible explanation for the difference. In that same vein, the other thing I notice about the '06’s is not so much daylight between the Chaillot and the Reynard vs those same two wines in 2012. Again, being short one Reynard parcel would seem to make sense.

Keep in mind that the “Reynard” and “Chaillot” bottlings don’t necessarily contain only fruit from the named vineyards. Allemand considers Reynard to be “old vines”, and Chaillot “young vines”. So younger fruit from either vineyard may go into Chaillot, and older fruit from either vineyard may go into Reynard. Now, I suspect that the base wine mostly matches its vineyard name, but it’s hard to know for sure.

[CFu]

@Jayson Cohen

@Nathan V.

@Jayson Cohen

Nathan, when you write about Juge, it surprises me. On which wines and vintages is this based?

Formative. Tons from the 80s through the 90s. Cuvée C, SC what have you. I have them from time to time in the contemporary era and I like them just fine, just not enough to seek them out. I’m much more interested in what Eric is up to, for example (and I’m biased in this regard, I know). I have another producer I’m following more closely than I did in the past, but hesitate to out them.

Don’t need to out them. I could probably guess one of about a handful but I won’t.

So it must be a stylistic thing re: Juge. But still this is interesting given your palate and how good I think the wines have been since the mid-90s.

I’ve wondered what is going into the single wine he makes now, beyond just his best old vines as reported on Polaner’s site. I think it is probably the oldest vines that were previously used for the SC bottling before 2002. Eric probably knows. Maybe Charlie does.

Someone can correct me if i’m wrong but this is what I was told by someone “in the know”. So I do not know how accurate it is.

When Marcel retired in the late 90s he had to give up some of his vineyards and basically only had his coteaux from 99-02. That’s why you don’t see any regular cornas bottles from that period. Then after 04 when Olga decided she didn’t want to make wine, I guess they sold the Combe vineyard that made up coteaux. He was sold vineyards in a separate area of Cayret & Champelrose (than his original vines) back in 03, in which he made a wine and continued to make wine from 05.

Who knows how much of it is accurate.

[Jay_Miller]

Anyway, the 2014 Allemand Chaillots was young and primary but incredibly impressive. As good as the wines from the '90s.

[Markus_S]

@Alan Rath

@Charles Zedlewski

What I notice about the '01s is they don’t have quite the same depth & polish of some of these later vintages. The absence of a Reynard parcel would be a very plausible explanation for the difference. In that same vein, the other thing I notice about the '06’s is not so much daylight between the Chaillot and the Reynard vs those same two wines in 2012. Again, being short one Reynard parcel would seem to make sense.

Keep in mind that the “Reynard” and “Chaillot” bottlings don’t necessarily contain only fruit from the named vineyards. Allemand considers Reynard to be “old vines”, and Chaillot “young vines”. So younger fruit from either vineyard may go into Chaillot, and older fruit from either vineyard may go into Reynard. Now, I suspect that the base wine mostly matches its vineyard name, but it’s hard to know for sure.

Wonder if Burgundians follow this model of putting whatever-the-hell-they-want into bottles?