Count me among those who do not agree about Muller. These wines are very overpriced and I am very happy drinking Zilliken, von Schubert, JJ Prum, etc., and forgetting about Muller. I cannot really comment on Keller as I am not a fan of dry German Rieslings so I drink almost no Keller.
Tempier is great, but so are Pibarnon and Vannières. And I think Valentini is even a greater name than Emidio Pepe.
However, as you said, Musar is a perfect example of one producer standing head and shoulders taller than the rest.
Thanks for weighing in. I had question marks on those because I am really not sure, although I do think Tempier’s single vineyard bottlings are significantly better than Pibarnon.
I’d also put Olga Raffault in the second growth.
I feel like there are equivalents for these (or near-enough proximations).
How about Musar for the Bekaa Valley? Now we’re talkin! Or Mastroberadino in Taurasi until about 1980? Singular.
While I respect Musar for what it is, it’s uniqueness, and even how difficult it can be to make in certain years, I’m not really a fan, so can’t be in the camp that would classify it as something that stands singly far and away above its peers. I don’t even think Keller is in the top tier of German wines, plus I don’t think there is a singular producer in Germany (sweet or dry) that stands head and shoulders above the rest. There are so many outstanding Bordeaux, I don’t believe that region can even be in the discussion. Being a darling that commands exorbitant prices isn’t necessarily a qualification for the honor, IMO.
Back to the original post, I think it’s fantastic. I do not know the Rougeard wines well enough to say whether they belong in their own category. But I certainly think Baudry and Alliet are at the top level. Olga Raffault I have only had older bottles (age 15+) and while I have enjoyed them, I think it’s mainly because they have been old and good and I have an unsubstantiated suspicion that younger bottles are less special, so I don’t see them at the same level as those. Couly-Dutheil about the same as Raffault, though I have had younger bottles – certainly below Baudry and Alliet. Nice spot to visit though.
Great list!
Personally I think Baudry is the best overall producer in Loire. When you consider the range of their production and offerings, from whites, to reds, to rose, they shine. And their top cuvees are best of class. While I personally like Marc Plouzeau’s Franc de Pied as much or more than Baudry’s best, Marc’s other offerings are solid but not at the same level. To me, Baudry is the “Super Second”.
Rougeard is still FG.
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I agree with all of this. My view of Raffault is in line with Chris C. – are the bottles I’ve had (from 80’s/90’s - late cellar releases?) representative of a great producer, or just surprisingly good because they were inexpensive, mature, Cab Franc, so I’ve overrated them in my mind? I’ve had young Raffault that hasn’t been great (but maybe it’s too young).
Guiberteau’s reds are not as good as their whites, but the Arboises has only gotten better with recent vintages and will be up there with the 2nd/3rd group in short order.
A Bandol producer I really like is Chateau Pradeaux.
To return to the initial discussion, I have updated my original post, based on everyone’s ideas and suggestions, moving some up, some down and adding some. It seemed easier than copying it out at the foot of the thread. I added one of my own to the “5ths” after a bottle last night - Domaine de la Cotelleraie (St.Nicolas de Bourgueil): the best cuvée is L’Envolée, but the Le Vau Jaumier 2008 I tried was excellent too.
I added “top QPR” to Olga Raffault, because it sells for half the price of the other “2nds”. If you don’t know, it’s interesting to note that it is now certified organic.
Another one I tried this week from St.Nicolas de B is Frédéric Mabileau - very impressive, in a different, more chiseled style than the Cotelleraie: his top cuvée is L’Eclipse, only produced occasionally - the most recent is 2014, but the 2010 I tried was fabulous and worth tracking down.
Please carry on with the suggestions - I suppose the point, if there is one, is to have a sort of rough reference we can all use in the future, since there isn’t one anywhere else.
I’ve had only one (just last Saturday, as a matter of fact) but it was already getting slightly past its peak and not showing its best anymore.
On reflection, Breton should be a Second. Anyone else concur?
It has been a staple of the Kermit portfolio for quite some time. Has a very large range of cuvees, reds and whites. One of the few Loire producers with a Franc de Pied, which is quite delicious, by the way. The flagship cuvees like Les Perrierres, Clos Senechal and Saint Louans are old vines. Vineyards in Chinon and Bourgueil. Very traditional in style. Top cuvees are quite age-worthy. I’ve recently had some Les Perrieres with 25+ years on them, and they were beautiful. Had one paired with the 1990 Raffault, and you could flip a coin as to which was better.
Someone should flip this thread to Chris Kissak for his excellent input.
Concur.
Another outstanding value producer from St-Nic-de-Bourgueil is Joël Taluau. K&L carries library vintages from the 90s for <$30. Good bottles of their ‘89 are stunning and can be had for $45.
Similar experience here with Raffault. I don’t drink enough Loire Cab Franc to be able to place her in a hierarchy. The need for age to show well could be considered a feature, not a bug in some circles.
Which wine? Pradeaux (from my cellar anyway) can seem immortal. The 1989 VV still isn’t totally ready. This is my favorite Bandol producer and the only one I actively cellar.
The regular Château Pradeaux Bandol 1997. Probably cellared in temperatures too high before I could get my hands on the bottle, then?
Doesn’t sound right, but I don’t have a record of having the 1997 (I wouldn’t have a record if I had it from any other source than my own cellar). Here is a not so old note on a 1994 (NB: La Rose Folle is the same as the “regular” Bandol):
1994 Château Pradeaux Bandol La Rose Folle - France, Provence, Bandol (11/6/2018)
This could be mistaken for nothing else. Pradeaux makes an uncompromising style of wine that you either like or don’t (Steph doesn’t). Chewy tannin, leathery dark fruit. We did get that hint of Provencal lavender that I love and that note of tree bark that I associate with their mourvèdre. This is a 24 year old wine that seems positively infantile. I can only think of two occasions, bottles 1982 and 1985, when I’ve had a resolved Pradeaux. I did have bottles of 1991 and 2006 that showed pretty well young, mostly though, young Pradeaux is a mouthful of sand. I don’t have another bottle, so who the hell knows when this will be at peak. It was still enjoyable, but intense and chewy. Did I mention the chewy tannin? (92 pts.)