Acker Merrall vs HDH auction experience as seller

[Jayson_Cohen]

Does that mean we have to ban Tom from this board as Todd and I refuse to do business with Acker? Where does the spiral end of how far we have to disassociate ourselves with Acker?

I’m considering moving out of the UWS so I don’t have to pass W. 72nd Street everyday. But to each her/his own.

How do you feel about their internet company.

I didn’t tell you where I’m thinking about moving to.

[Ted_Alexander]

go with HDH-easier to spell

[alan_weinberg]

^ huge +1.

agree. I quit their mailings also.

[Ed_Baum]

To me the key with all of this is sharing information. OP asked a very legitimate question. I personally side with Tim on this, but if someone wants to do business with Acker, let them. I wouldn’t buy or sell with them because of their history, but me and others like me might not move the market now or ever.

But everyone should know Acker’s history and Kapon’s role in it if they are planning on doing business with Acker, so they can make their own choices.

Boards like this are fantastic because people share their experiences and knowledge. Let’s keep that going and we can all make the decisions we think best.

[k_s_h_i_n]

The way I see it (admittedly very pessimistically), there is a chance that no amount of rebellion here in the US will really dent the global auction market at this point in time…just too much money chasing too little supply (and that is WITH the counterfeits in circulation).

The initial speculation/cornering the market started in NYC.

If you are consigning extremely rare wines, fast hammer is something to worry about.

[John_Morris]

oddly enough i have purchased wine from hart davis hart which had an acker merrall sticker on the back of it…

i’m curious if people who refuse to do business with acker also refuse to purchase and drink wine from producers who directly consign with them?

Does that mean we have to ban Tom from this board as Todd and I refuse to do business with Acker? Where does the spiral end of how far we have to disassociate ourselves with Acker?

I’m considering moving out of the UWS so I don’t have to pass W. 72nd Street everyday. But to each her/his own.

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

The initial speculation/cornering the market started in NYC.

Don’t agree with you. Before China entered the wine market the largest buyers at auction were spread around the country. Sure there were/are many big collectors in NYC but Aubrey, Koch, Stott - just to name a few - are/were not. Aubrey single handedly impacted large format prices and the best wines from 1959.

[k_s_h_i_n]

The initial speculation/cornering the market started in NYC.

Don’t agree with you. Before China entered the wine market the largest buyers at auction were spread around the country. Sure there were/are many big collectors in NYC but Aubrey, Koch, Stott - just to name a few - are/were not. Aubrey single handedly impacted large format prices and the best wines from 1959.

I used to buy old Champagnes for next to nothing before it was legal to auction in NYC. Also DRC, Jayer, Roumier and etc. were much cheaper prior to Rudy and NYC gangs joined in. China joined much later, really getting big after HK waived the import tax on wine. Also Chinese first started with Bordeaux.

[Mark_Golodetz]

The initial speculation/cornering the market started in NYC.

Don’t agree with you. Before China entered the wine market the largest buyers at auction were spread around the country. Sure there were/are many big collectors in NYC but Aubrey, Koch, Stott - just to name a few - are/were not. Aubrey single handedly impacted large format prices and the best wines from 1959.

The first couple of years of auctions were pretty stable. The first giant speculation was in Singapore, and first growths from 1995 went up from $650 a case to $1800
Most of the action was in London and the wine stayed in bond here. Within a few years buyers realized the problems with taxes and getting the wines delivered. In the end most of the wine was resold at a small loss.

It took several years for NY to overtake London.

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

The initial speculation/cornering the market started in NYC.

Don’t agree with you. Before China entered the wine market the largest buyers at auction were spread around the country. Sure there were/are many big collectors in NYC but Aubrey, Koch, Stott - just to name a few - are/were not. Aubrey single handedly impacted large format prices and the best wines from 1959.

I used to buy old Champagnes for next to nothing before it was legal to auction in NYC. Also DRC, Jayer, Roumier and etc. were much cheaper prior to Rudy and NYC gangs joined in. China joined much later, really getting big after HK waived the import tax on wine. Also Chinese first started with Bordeaux.

This will be my last post in this thread since we’re derailing the OP’s intent.

NYC auctions started in 1994 and old Champagne was still inexpensive for several more years. Additionally, I’m not sure why you think buyers at NYC auctions are from NYC.
You mention Rudy who was a west coast guy. Lastly, I didn’t realize NYC gangs were big buyers of high end wine.

[ToddFrench]

Don’t agree with you. Before China entered the wine market the largest buyers at auction were spread around the country. Sure there were/are many big collectors in NYC but Aubrey, Koch, Stott - just to name a few - are/were not. Aubrey single handedly impacted large format prices and the best wines from 1959.

I used to buy old Champagnes for next to nothing before it was legal to auction in NYC. Also DRC, Jayer, Roumier and etc. were much cheaper prior to Rudy and NYC gangs joined in. China joined much later, really getting big after HK waived the import tax on wine. Also Chinese first started with Bordeaux.

This will be my last post in this thread since we’re derailing the OP’s intent.

I disagree - I think these discussions apply quite well to the OP’s intent

[Mark_Golodetz]

There were Far Eastern buyers even in 1994. I was talking to a friend at Christies about a ten lot parcel of Chateau Latour 1970. Retail Sherry Lehmann a couple of blocks away, a case was selling for $3200 a case.

First lot hammers for $16,200, As it is a parcel he takes 5 cases. The underbidder then pay $12,800 (figures are from memory and may be slightly wrong, but pretty close). He takes 3 lots at $12,800. Final two lots sell for $2500,
According to my friend, both bidder and under bidder fro the Far East.

[michaelgor]

Michael,

Just wanted to say I sold wine for the first time at auction this last June.

I went with HDH. They provided excellent service and really walked be through the process. All with a zero percent sellers fee.

It was difficult to say goodbye to my wines but they made it easier by a long mile and everything went as smoothly as I could imagine.

John

John,

I thank you so much. I never, ever dreamed my simple question would ignite such a “discussion”. WOW

I also went with HDH, just shipped 15 cases of First Growths for November auction.
We are downsizing and all of my wine was stored here. too much to drink in 2-3 lifetimes. keeping our fingers crossed re auction results. one thing for sure, after seeing what happened with my innocent post, i ain’t gonna comment on the results

i made the classic mistake, buying too much wine. did not buy it to auction it in the futurebut to drink

some of it was from Premier Cru…talk about another fire storm…but they were in Northern California which has more than enough of its own firestorms

[paulbortin]

Jaw dropping prices at Acker all across the spectrum for the best wines. From memory 1990 dujac
CdR $5,000 per 750, 1985 Dujac BM $30,000 2 mags. Many more simply unbelievable results.

[Tom_Reddick]

Jaw dropping prices at Acker all across the spectrum for the best wines. From memory 1990 dujac
CdR $5,000 per 750, 1985 Dujac BM $30,000 2 mags. Many more simply unbelievable results.

What really blew my mind was $13,000 for 3 magnums of Raveneau Chablis Les Clos- a mixed lot with two 2002s and one 2004. 30 seconds prior, I had thought my SMH moment of the day would be the previous lot- $10,000 for 6 bottles of the 2002.

Germany ended up quite soft, but otherwise some strong results, and a few jaw droppers.

Eight years now we have been on an upward run, and each time it goes higher it seems it just cannot last- but it has.

[Tim_McCracken]

John,

I thank you so much. I never, ever dreamed my simple question would ignite such a “discussion”. WOW

I also went with HDH, just shipped 15 cases of First Growths for November auction.
We are downsizing and all of my wine was stored here. too much to drink in 2-3 lifetimes. keeping our fingers crossed re auction results. one thing for sure, after seeing what happened with my innocent post, i ain’t gonna comment on the results

i made the classic mistake, buying too much wine. did not buy it to auction it in the futurebut to drink

some of it was from Premier Cru…talk about another fire storm…but they were in Northern California which has more than enough of its own firestorms

Glad you made that choice!

I too purchased quite a bit from PC. Unfortunately got burned in the end (including for some DRC that was never delivered) but some of the things that I bought ended up being treasures as well.

[michaelgor]

yes, i lost $2300, but was sooo very lucky compared to friends i know
it was so easy to fall for “if something is too good to be true…

however, thank goodness, yes they bought through the grey mkt, but have not heard of counterfeit wines…but PLEASE dont tell me…dont want to hear abt it

[Tom_Reddick]

yes, i lost $2300, but was sooo very lucky compared to friends i know
it was so easy to fall for “if something is too good to be true…

however, thank goodness, yes they bought through the grey mkt, but have not heard of counterfeit wines…but PLEASE dont tell me…dont want to hear abt it

Very early on in the Rudy scam (so early it might not have been Rudy bottles in some cases), PC had some outright impossible bottles for sale including a jeroboam of 1945 Romanee-Conti, but they wised up pretty quick and got away from that. With PC you do have to be concerned about heat damage in their later years of existence as they got very sloppy in their sourcing practices to cover positions, but even that was not the majority of cases- and I would not be worried on the counterfeit issue unless you had bought one of those impossible bottles back in the early 2000s.

Congratulations on your pending sale- you have chosen a solid resource and I hope it goes well. For my part, and going back to your earlier post, I apologize to you for any thread drift that caused discomfort. As you now see, Acker is a long-term point of contention on this forum and sometimes that pot just boils over.

[michaelgor]

Thank you Tom,

I actually had learned a lot.

Fortunately, all of the btls I received from PC arrived in pristine condition with no sign of heat damage,
slightly raised corks etc

[michaelgor]

also, you should have seen the multiple PM’s I received from very well-meaning members, both against Acker and also supporting them.