Age-worthy Burg for Idiots

[Matthew_Goldman]

@Lee Short

Nobody remotely made the suggestion that one should only cellar Burgundy in the $30-$50 range. The OP stated that that was all he could afford. He made no statement about what those of greater means should do, nor do I see how one could reasonable be read into his statement.

Of course the OP made no statement about what those of greater means should do. He was asking for advice about his own cellar. And one could reasonably read into his original post that his intention was to build a cellar, for himself, of entirely $30-50 Burgundies. That was the idea Charlie maligned. Additionally, the strong implication was that the OP couldn’t afford to stock a cellar full of $100+ bottles, not that he could only buy a single bottle. As long as he can buy multiple bottles - which he very clearly suggested, since, again, he asked about a cellar and not just a single bottle - the advice that he should cut down on the number of $30-50 bottles in favor of fewer high priced bottles is sound. This would result in a mix of bottles at different price points.

@Lee Short

What I did see is you saying you should only cellar burgundy at $90-$150.

@Lee Short

Yep. He said not to buy $30-$50 bottles for cellaring and to instead buy $90-$150 bottles for cellaring. That isn’t ambiguous, that’s a clear statement. Buying one third as many bottles at three times the price is Charlie’s clear direction. That leaves a grand budget of $0 left over. Do the math.

It’s only unambiguous if you fail to see the other reasonable interpretation, namely, that the OP cut in third the number of bottles at the $30-50 level, not the total number of bottles he intends to buy.

@Lee Short

So Charlie contradicts himself. I guess that given his statements earlier in that post, I failed to recognize how much he backpedalled in the last sentence. Mea culpa.

Again, he clarified an ambiguity that was fairly apparent to anyone who didn’t approach the comment with a clear disdain for Charlie’s big spender ways. And even if it was a contradiction - which it wasn’t - you already had both posts at your disposal before making a reply. It seems a bit disingenuous to fixate on the first post if you think Charlie reversed course in the second.

Anyway, I have better things to do than keep arguing. I only started down this path because I hate to let a poor argument go unanswered, and because I’m not a fan of blatant aggression on this board. Carry on, carry on.

[CFu]

@Lee Short

@Charlie Fu

Thought I made myself pretty clear in my second reply so no need on your part to infer anything on what I said as I was very straightforward in my response. The answer to your first question can be seen in Mr. Z’s normative statement.

Please show me the part of his statement that says no one should collect $100 burgundies. Because I really don’t see it.

Feel free to flaunt your lack of comprehension with that flirty smile, though.

I apologize for making this thread into a shit show. I’ll retreat

[Todd_Tucker]

Several people have had some good ideas so far. I also feel yo duo not have to spend a ton in Burgundy to drink well, but time in bottle is often needed. If you want some bottles with some age, HDH has for me been a source of non glamour 10-15 year old red burgs at the 50 and under level.I’ve had several blles from 96-02 that I have bought from them that ar drinking well and representative of what they should be. Not barn burners, but very enjoyable wine
I like Howards recs as well

To throw out a few value good drinking wines (at least for me)

Hudelot Noellat Vosne Village and Chambolle Village
I really thought Faiveley’s Mercurey Clos de Myglands was beautiful in 09 and 10 and in the low 30’s. A wine of depth, character and cellar worthy, and an almost unreasonable value.
Simon Bize (at the top end of your level and certainly age worthy well made wine)
I have liked the 09 and 10 Arlaud Bourgogne Roncevie
Audoin Marsannay
Chandon Briailles Pernand Vergelesses 1ers
Roy’s Marsannays
HDH had at least recently Chateau de Chorey’s beaune 1ers from 96-02 and most are drinking well and in that price range
Digioia Royer Chambolle VV Village wine
Bertheau Chambolle Village
Bachelet HcdN, and Gevrey VV (the Gevrey is above 50 now for sure)
Jadot Beaune 1er Cru’s: Ursules and Bressandes among others, and while not a barn burner, I have enjoyed their 99 Volnay Santenots that HDH had some 99 and 02s pretty cheap. HDH may still ahv e bunch of wines in that range. The blles I purchased were in great condition. (I have no affiliation with them aside form a one time happy customer)

Also often a riper year (09) makes village wines (and less famous appellations) shine more so than the privileged dirt, so it is often a year like that where Village level wines show greater palate breadth and depth and punch above their respective weight, and I for one have really enjoyed drinking 09 village wines, and I think many will have a decent lifespan. Same for non famous appellations.

[Lee_Short]

I also apologize for dragging this thread further off topic.

---

I agree that Hard Davis Hart (HDH) is a great source for older wines at fair prices. Benchmark Wine also is, though pickings are spottier and you have to react quickly to their email offerings. Envoyer Fine Wine is a gold mine.

For some more specific recs, see this thread: Santenay: any room for it at your table? - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

[Robert_Pavlovich]

2010 La Pousse d’Or Caillerets

Very nice Burgundy in the $65-70 per bottle range. Also recommend browsing Nuits St. George producers like Gouges and Chevillon. Even their village wines are excellent with plenty of aging potential.

[Matthew_Goldman]

@Lee Short

I also apologize for dragging this thread further off topic.

---

I agree that Hard Davis Hart (HDH) is a great source for older wines at fair prices. Benchmark Wine also is, though pickings are spottier and you have to react quickly to their email offerings. Envoyer Fine Wine is a gold mine.

For some more specific recs, see this thread: Santenay: any room for it at your table? - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

As do I. And I agree with Lee, especially as it relates to Envoyer. My inbox is always filled with really tempting Burgundy offers thanks to Envoyer’s constant emails.

[Morten_Batbukt]

If one wishes to drink aged Burgundy in order to see if one likes it a good entrance to go through could be Robert Ampeau.

[Brady_Daniels]

I agree with the suggestion to start by drinking, not cellaring. Your tastes, even within Burgundy, are likely to change. Tastings are great, dinners are better.

That said, if you buy wines from a big name domaine to cellar, you should have no problem re-selling if your tastes change. No guarantees for lower priced domaines, though.

Enjoy the journey!

[Kirk.Grant]

I think I am in the Charlie Fu/Doug Schulman camp…mostly with one difference. I think if you’re asking about it now…now is the time to start buying. Buy one bottle from a great vintage that’s on the higher end of the scale in price. The 2010’s are almost all gone in this market…but if you can find a single bottle of any of the 2010 Chevillon 1er’s (that’s where I’d start). You’ll be glad you have it in 10 years and it’s not likely to cost any less by then either. Each time you hear about a great vintage…pick a different region. Maybe in 2012 buy a Gevrey Chambertin Grand Cru. Then…with those single bottles tucked away and well cared for spend the rest of your money buying aged bottles at auctions (93, 95, 96, 99, 02, and even 05) to have…look at the cellartracker reviews and get into as many tastings as you can with people that know more about Burgundy than you…

[Nathan_Smyth]

@NoahR

Age-worthy Burg for Idiots

The Idiot in question had better be either:

1. A Trust Fund Baby, whose executor can be conned into signing the checks, or

2. A Skid Row Bum who just won the Powerball Jackpot.

@NoahR

$30-50

You’re missing a “0”.

You meant to type “$300-500”.

And even there, the pickings are gonna be very, very slim.

Add another zero, to get to “$3000-5000”, and you’ll have a better selection to contemplate.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Todd Tucker

I also feel yo duo not have to spend a ton in Burgundy to drink well, but time in bottle is often needed. If you want some bottles with some age, HDH has for me been a source of non glamour 10-15 year old red burgs at the 50 and under level.

Great point about age. I have had luck ordering wines with age a decent prices from Envoyer (which someone mentioned earlier). The only problem is that once you get on their mailing list you will buy too much. I have one friend where six months after I recommended Envoyer he came to a tasting and told me he hated me - he had ordered about 20 cases from them already.

[Peter_Chiu]

@NoahR

Thanks already for the great responses - they are much appreciated.

I guess I am interested in both exploring different regions of Burgundy to taste the regional character as well as beginning a cellar. I know I like the flavors in mature Bordeaux, Rhone and Oregonian pinot, as well as Rioja so I figured I would similarly appreciate that of mature Burgundy. When I lived in New York, my next store neighbor was the Burgundy Wine Co and I was able to go to a number of tastings where I had some powerful and wonderful wines, but that was also before I knew anything at all about wine and so have zero memory of what was what.

I think, basically, that I’m primed to like good and mature Burgs, but I want to build my knowledge without spending a ton, and get a better sense of what it makes sense for me to actually splurge on, given the absurd number of choices. I buy much of my wine at auction right now, so I can try some 90’s bottles and see what mature Burgundy tastes like. It’s just so hard to know where to start in terms of quality, finding producers and wines that would be representative. I’ve had many bottles of “Bourgogne Rouge” that was standard light, red fruit, without much structure. I know I like heavier body and more powerful wines in general, so that’s where I’m starting.

As far as my long-term intentions - I’m starting to build a cellar, buying some mid-level Bordeaux and California futures, some Oregonian and Washington syrahs, some Felsinas and mid-level Italians and picking up bottles here and there of things I think I’d like. I’ve got very few pinots on the whole, though a few bottles of 1999 Chehalem Rion Reserve I got at Winebid were really wonderful and are prompting my exploration.

Thanks,
Noah

Very interesting …


*****…I buy much of my wine at auction right now, so I can try some 90’s bottles and see what mature Burgundy tastes like… *****

Read more TNs posted by Paul and Tom here

[Peter_Chiu]

Charlie Fu said :

I apologize for making this thread into a shit show. I’ll retreat

- Charlie…speaking like a true-Tao fellower.

To win-over your enemy lies with forgiveness ( and politeness ) !

[maureen_nelson]

@Nathan Smyth

@NoahR

Age-worthy Burg for Idiots

The Idiot in question had better be either:

1. A Trust Fund Baby, whose executor can be conned into signing the checks, or

2. A Skid Row Bum who just won the Powerball Jackpot.

@NoahR

$30-50

You’re missing a “0”.

You meant to type “$300-500”.

And even there, the pickings are gonna be very, very slim.

Add another zero, to get to “$3000-5000”, and you’ll have a better selection to contemplate.

I have never spent as much as $300 on a bottle of Burgundy and I have plenty that are worth cellaring and even you might think are great wines.

But you know this - you are just flaunting your ignorance, right?

[Tom_Blach]

He is just being silly, certainly, though looking at the prices for 2012s he might one day soon be right.

[BrianMarshall]

Some great suggestions here. I’ll add Blain-Gagnard. He makes a quality chassagne-Montrachet village red for about $30. Nothing over the top, just a good village wine.

[Howard_Cooper]

Also, try Paul Chapelle Santenay. Have only had it once, but was impressed and have heard other good thinks about the winery

[Edward_H_Earles]

Very interesting thread…I bookmarked it.

What would you folks suggest buying for immediate consumption in that price range? I’ve been drinking mostly Marsannays and Mercureys, and have been pretty happy so far. I bought a case of the 2010 Jean Fournier Cuvee St. Urbain Marsannay, and it was an absolute steal at $24/bottle…but it’s starting to close down now. I’d like to expand out to other villages. I have a few Pommards, Vosne-Romanees, etc, that I’m trying to age, but I need some burgs to drink in the meantime so I’m not tempted into dipping into my stash.

[Nicolas_G]

Hey guys,

I managed to make a small ‘compilation’ of the wines mentioned in the Thread… maybe I missed some of them though

Chandon des Briailles
Jadot and Bouchard Beaune premier crus (Ursules and Bressandes among others)
Pavelot 1er crus from Savigny les Beaune
Jouan Passtoutsgrain
Dublere
Hudelot Noellat Vosne Village and Chambolle Village
Faiveley’s Mercurey Clos de Myglands 2009 and 2010
Simon Bize
Arlaud Bourgogne Roncevie 2009 2010
Audoin Marsannay
Chandon Briailles Pernand Vergelesses 1ers
Roy’s Marsannays
Chateau de Chorey’s beaune 1ers from 96-02
Digioia Royer Chambolle VV Village wine
Bertheau Chambolle Village
Bachelet HcdN, and Gevrey VV (the Gevrey is above 50 now for sure)
Nuits St. Georges - '09 Drouhin NSG villages (several stores under $50),
Nuits St. Georges - 2010 Chevillon NSG villages $45 from JJ Buckley
Chambolle '09 hudelot Noellat Chambolle villages - I’ve had this numerous times and I think it does a good job of classic Chambolle;
Grapes the Wine Co - either '10 or '11 Hudelot baillet Chambolle for $47 - the proprietor is Frederick Mugnier’s vineyard manager
Morey - 2007 pascal Marchand Morey St. Denis Clos des Ormes 1er $41.35 wine anthology.com
Vosne - 1999 Champy VR Beaux Monts @ HDH for $45, 2005 Jadot Vosne village $50 from Cornwall wines,
Volnay - 2005 Jean Marc Bouley Volnay Clos des Chenes 1er $50 from Vinfolio
Beaune - '05 Jadot beaune Greves 1er from Vinfolio $48
Rollin Pernand Vergelesses - esp. the Les Vergelesses for nearer term drinking and the Iles des Vergelesses for longer term
Pavelot Savignys - esp. the Dominodes
Bize Savignys - esp. the Vergelesses
Roty Marsannay Ouzeloy
Drouhin village wines
Lafarge village Volnay
Faiveley Mercurey Clos des Myglands
2010 La Pousse d’Or Caillerets

Hope it helps

[David_R0sewater]

@Edward H. Earles

Very interesting thread…I bookmarked it.

What would you folks suggest buying for immediate consumption in that price range? I’ve been drinking mostly Marsannays and Mercureys, and have been pretty happy so far. I bought a case of the 2010 Jean Fournier Cuvee St. Urbain Marsannay, and it was an absolute steal at $24/bottle…but it’s starting to close down now. I’d like to expand out to other villages. I have a few Pommards, Vosne-Romanees, etc, that I’m trying to age, but I need some burgs to drink in the meantime so I’m not tempted into dipping into my stash.

I think any of the wines I cited on the previous page should be fine for drinking now - if you are a necrophiliac then wait 20 years, otherwise I think they should all be quite nice, though maybe give them a decant.

The one that probably needs age the most is the Jadot. beaune Greves - a great, way underrated vineyard but the wines are structured.