Alfert and I visit Kane (Rougeard, Beaucastel, Gonon, Juge, etc)

[CFu]

Had a couple of Rougeard on Saturday evening: the 03 normale showed much like previous bottles, eternally youthful with strong red fruits and just a hint of green pepper. They crushed it in this heat wave year. I think everything went into the ‘regular’ cuvee that year which of course helps. The 02 Poyeux was much more resolved, with more subtle earth and cooked cherries, a wine of balance more than hedonistic pleasure. I would hold, though we decanted and it was structured enough to maintain for a couple of hours.

Agree that the wines were remarkable in 2003 (maybe even better than 2002) and the same in 1997. They do seem to handle the hot vintages well. It might have something to do with long élévage in that cold ass cellar. They did make all 4 wines in 2003 (3 reds and a white) and the Bourg may well end up immortal.

had the 03 Bourg a couple weeks ago - seems pretty well integrated now with the fruit holding hands firmly with the secondary notes except for the oak which is still fairly prominent.

[Greg_K]

I’ve never found VA in Juge (including a bottle of the 2014 in Jan) but maybe the high-toned and acid forward character could give the impression?

I don’t think I’ve had Juge with so much VA as to render it undrinkable, though it’s certainly often there. I’ve definitely had Juge with too much of a lactic note to make it undrinkable.

I really don’t pick it up in Juge. How would you describe it? I had an 09 with a slight lactic note but was still quite drinkable.

I’d describe it as lactic Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

[ToddFrench]

I don’t think I’ve had Juge with so much VA as to render it undrinkable, though it’s certainly often there. I’ve definitely had Juge with too much of a lactic note to make it undrinkable.

I really don’t pick it up in Juge. How would you describe it? I had an 09 with a slight lactic note but was still quite drinkable.

I’d describe it as lactic @Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

Very interesting - we had a similar conversation at our table. At least KJJ knows he needs to buy zero Juge

[CFu]

I don’t think I’ve had Juge with so much VA as to render it undrinkable, though it’s certainly often there. I’ve definitely had Juge with too much of a lactic note to make it undrinkable.

I really don’t pick it up in Juge. How would you describe it? I had an 09 with a slight lactic note but was still quite drinkable.

I’d describe it as lactic @Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

Feel like I get lactic notes sometimes in Allemand too (and Juge). usually mousy to go along with it

[Greg_K]

I really don’t pick it up in Juge. How would you describe it? I had an 09 with a slight lactic note but was still quite drinkable.

I’d describe it as lactic @Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

Feel like I get lactic notes sometimes in Allemand too (and Juge). usually mousy to go along with it

I don’t get lactic notes on Allemand. When Allemand is not good for me, it’s green (2011 Reynard is a notable offender here). Fortunately Allemand has about as high a hit rate as any producer I buy - which is why I buy it every year

[CFu]

I’d describe it as lactic @Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

Feel like I get lactic notes sometimes in Allemand too (and Juge). usually mousy to go along with it

I don’t get lactic notes on Allemand. When Allemand is not good for me, it’s green (2011 Reynard is a notable offender here). Fortunately Allemand has about as high a hit rate as any producer I buy - which is why I buy it every year

Had a couple 08s that were super lactic in the past year, which is unfortunate as other btls in the same batch (bought a case back in 2014) were fire

[Greg_K]

Feel like I get lactic notes sometimes in Allemand too (and Juge). usually mousy to go along with it

I don’t get lactic notes on Allemand. When Allemand is not good for me, it’s green (2011 Reynard is a notable offender here). Fortunately Allemand has about as high a hit rate as any producer I buy - which is why I buy it every year

Had a couple 08s that were super lactic in the past year, which is unfortunate as other btls in the same batch (bought a case back in 2014) were fire

Interesting. Not sure I’ve had an 08 recently. Actually, I haven’t had a bottle of Allemand in a few months. I’d change that, but it’s been so fuc*ing hot…

[Jayson_Cohen]

I’ve only had lactic notes on Juge in 2004 Cornas C and that 2007 Greg mentioned. Both quite disappointing. Sad was when I first poured a sample taste of the 2007 before bringing it to dinner, it was pure fruited. By the time of dinner about 1.5 hours later, it was pretty gross. I’m now 0 for 2 on 2007. The first one a friend brought to an event in Spain 3 years ago was corked.

Never had a lactic 2014 among about 5 or 6 bottles.

A little VA is also typical in Juge, like it is in wines like Musar or Vega Sicilia. Usually less than the typical Musar. Haven’t noticed anything egregious in 2014 Juge.

[Yao_C]

Sad was when I first poured a sample taste of the 2007 before bringing it to dinner, it was pure fruited. By the time of dinner about 1.5 hours later, it was pretty gross. I’m now 0 for 2 on 2007. The first one a friend brought to an event in Spain 3 years ago was corked.

Sorry to hear. I opened a 2007 two years ago and didn’t get any lactic notes - and we took our time with it, too

I have had VA in Allemand before. Ordered a 2005 Chaillot at a restaurant and got obnoxious amounts of acetone. Sent it back, and they opened a second bottle of the same for me. Less of it and drinkable, but it got worse and worse with air

[Robert.A.Jr]

I’ve only had lactic notes on Juge in 2004 Cornas C and that 2007 Greg mentioned. Both quite disappointing. Sad was when I first poured a sample taste of the 2007 before bringing it to dinner, it was pure fruited. By the time of dinner about 1.5 hours later, it was pretty gross. I’m now 0 for 2 on 2007. The first one a friend brought to an event in Spain 3 years ago was corked.

Never had a lactic 2014 among about 5 or 6 bottles.

A little VA is also typical in Juge, like it is in wines like Musar or Vega Sicilia. Usually less than the typical Musar. Haven’t noticed anything egregious in 2014 Juge.

I have the same experience as Jayson with the 2014 Juge, and likewise have had six. I definitely pick up VA in most bottles of Musar red that I open.

Are you guys conflating VA and Lactic?

[Robert.A.Jr]

I don’t think I’ve had Juge with so much VA as to render it undrinkable, though it’s certainly often there. I’ve definitely had Juge with too much of a lactic note to make it undrinkable.

I really don’t pick it up in Juge. How would you describe it? I had an 09 with a slight lactic note but was still quite drinkable.

I’d describe it as lactic @Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

The beautiful citrus, blood fruit acid on cool vintage Juge is what causes me to swoon.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I’ve only had lactic notes on Juge in 2004 Cornas C and that 2007 Greg mentioned. Both quite disappointing. Sad was when I first poured a sample taste of the 2007 before bringing it to dinner, it was pure fruited. By the time of dinner about 1.5 hours later, it was pretty gross. I’m now 0 for 2 on 2007. The first one a friend brought to an event in Spain 3 years ago was corked.

Never had a lactic 2014 among about 5 or 6 bottles.

A little VA is also typical in Juge, like it is in wines like Musar or Vega Sicilia. Usually less than the typical Musar. Haven’t noticed anything egregious in 2014 Juge.

I have the same experience as Jayson with the 2014 Juge, and likewise have had six. I definitely pick up VA in most bottles of Musar red that I open.

Are you guys conflating VA and Lactic?

I’m not. Different. You’d know lactic if you had it I think.

[Robert.A.Jr]

I’ve only had lactic notes on Juge in 2004 Cornas C and that 2007 Greg mentioned. Both quite disappointing. Sad was when I first poured a sample taste of the 2007 before bringing it to dinner, it was pure fruited. By the time of dinner about 1.5 hours later, it was pretty gross. I’m now 0 for 2 on 2007. The first one a friend brought to an event in Spain 3 years ago was corked.

Never had a lactic 2014 among about 5 or 6 bottles.

A little VA is also typical in Juge, like it is in wines like Musar or Vega Sicilia. Usually less than the typical Musar. Haven’t noticed anything egregious in 2014 Juge.

I have the same experience as Jayson with the 2014 Juge, and likewise have had six. I definitely pick up VA in most bottles of Musar red that I open.

Are you guys conflating VA and Lactic?

I’m not. Different. You’d know lactic if you had it I think.

I know lactic. My sense of VA is not that. Perhaps I am misreading, but some posts above seem to be suggesting that VA manifests as lactic. Not my experience at all. I see VA as high-toned stuff almost bordering on acetone or clear nail polish. Your comment on Musar was dead on point. That’s VA.

[Greg_K]

I really don’t pick it up in Juge. How would you describe it? I had an 09 with a slight lactic note but was still quite drinkable.

I’d describe it as lactic @Jayson Cohen and I had an 07 last summer (I think?) that was super lactic as well which I had a tough time drinking.

I suspect it’s also what makes our views on Juge distinct - I find it a perfectly cromulent Cornas that can occasionally be very good but occasionally be undrinkable due to lactic notes, while others love it. Palate variation! I keep hearing about the beautiful acid in Juge and have personally never found it.

The beautiful citrus, blood fruit acid on cool vintage Juge is what causes me to swoon.

I’ve never had that experience, I must say. I’m also not confusing lactic and VA - I do drink barolo, after all

[Markus_S]

… I haven’t had a bottle of Allemand in a few months. I’d change that, but it’s been so fuc*ing hot…

Don’t let the heat get to you: drink a nice syrah laughs in it’s face.

[Robert.A.Jr]

… I haven’t had a bottle of Allemand in a few months. I’d change that, but it’s been so fuc*ing hot…

Don’t let the heat get to you: drink a nice syrah laughs in it’s face.

I realize it’s a major luxury, but there is this relatively new invention called air conditioning…

[ToddFrench]

I have the same experience as Jayson with the 2014 Juge, and likewise have had six. I definitely pick up VA in most bottles of Musar red that I open.

Are you guys conflating VA and Lactic?

I’m not. Different. You’d know lactic if you had it I think.

I know lactic. My sense of VA is not that. Perhaps I am misreading, but some posts above seem to be suggesting that VA manifests as lactic. Not my experience at all. I see VA as high-toned stuff almost bordering on acetone or clear nail polish. Your comment on Musar was dead on point. That’s VA.

To those who brought it up in this thread, know that you have tortured Alfert, for when someone knows as much as he does, and finds conflicting opinions regarding something that perhaps he feels he might be ‘wrong’ (never actually, just ‘possible’) he scours articles and reads studies to find out everything about it. I know this.

[Robert.A.Jr]

I’m not. Different. You’d know lactic if you had it I think.

I know lactic. My sense of VA is not that. Perhaps I am misreading, but some posts above seem to be suggesting that VA manifests as lactic. Not my experience at all. I see VA as high-toned stuff almost bordering on acetone or clear nail polish. Your comment on Musar was dead on point. That’s VA.

To those who brought it up in this thread, know that you have tortured Alfert, for when someone knows as much as he does, and finds conflicting opinions regarding something that perhaps he feels he might be ‘wrong’ (never actually, just ‘possible’) he scours articles and reads studies to find out everything about it. I know this.

Sigh…

That’s what associates are for.

[ToddFrench]

I know lactic. My sense of VA is not that. Perhaps I am misreading, but some posts above seem to be suggesting that VA manifests as lactic. Not my experience at all. I see VA as high-toned stuff almost bordering on acetone or clear nail polish. Your comment on Musar was dead on point. That’s VA.

To those who brought it up in this thread, know that you have tortured Alfert, for when someone knows as much as he does, and finds conflicting opinions regarding something that perhaps he feels he might be ‘wrong’ (never actually, just ‘possible’) he scours articles and reads studies to find out everything about it. I know this.

Sigh…

That’s what associates are for.

Not for wine smartz!

[Rick_Allen]

So it’s been several days, and we have no response yet from the third member of your party. What did you do to him?