Best value elite Bordeaux?

[LasseK1]

A quick highjack of the thread: Is Chateau Phelan Segur 1996 a decent wine?

[Otto_Forsberg]

There are so many good producers in Bordeaux (it probably offers the best deals in high-end wine) that it’s hard to generalize. I think the key distinction is whether you are looking for 1) the best cab blend in the world at some $25 to $50 price point – Bordeaux offers many candidates, or 2) something just as good as a super high end first growth/Cheval Blanc type wine for one-third the price – Bordeaux offers a lot of those too. But they are pretty different things to pursue because the second category is only a “value” in a relative sense, it is a $150-200 wine as good as a $600 wine, or perhaps a $300 wine as good as a $900-1000 wine.

Does this translate to “high-end wine” meaning either The Best Cab Blend or wines that cost hundreds of euros?

While there are a handful of wines that are both terrific in quality and priced relatively modestly in relation to their level of quality, in my books Bordeaux offers probably the worst deals after Napa and Burgundy. I mean almost any region offers better value for money than those three regions. These regions can produce some outrageously impressive wines, but more often than not you have to pay a pretty penny for those.

[Marcu_Stanley]

Totally disagree Otto. Bordeaux has great deals at all price levels. It is nothing like Napa where everything is 2x overpriced or like Burgundy where you pay a lot to get a unique experience but performance is inconsistent. Bordeaux offers all kinds of value for money propositions that simply cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. (If you like the style of course). See Rob’s example of 2016 Branaire Ducru at $50 – I have had that wine and it’s fantastic. Try that wine and tell me whether you’d prefer some souped-up Argentine Malbec for the price. Or the bottles of 2000 Lanessan that I have been enjoying recently. Those were I think $12/bottle at release, $25-30 a bottle recently, and are crisp, clean, pure, beautiful wines that offer a perfect balance between elegant fruit and some aged complexity. There are many other examples I or others could give.

[K_Tran1]

There are so many good producers in Bordeaux (it probably offers the best deals in high-end wine) that it’s hard to generalize. I think the key distinction is whether you are looking for 1) the best cab blend in the world at some $25 to $50 price point – Bordeaux offers many candidates, or 2) something just as good as a super high end first growth/Cheval Blanc type wine for one-third the price – Bordeaux offers a lot of those too. But they are pretty different things to pursue because the second category is only a “value” in a relative sense, it is a $150-200 wine as good as a $600 wine, or perhaps a $300 wine as good as a $900-1000 wine.

Does this translate to “high-end wine” meaning either The Best Cab Blend or wines that cost hundreds of euros?

While there are a handful of wines that are both terrific in quality and priced relatively modestly in relation to their level of quality, in my books Bordeaux offers probably the worst deals after Napa and Burgundy. I mean almost any region offers better value for money than those three regions. These regions can produce some outrageously impressive wines, but more often than not you have to pay a pretty penny for those.

Champagne? Each producer can release millions of bottle annually. When is the last time you taste a great bottle of champagne for $50?

[Ron_Slye]

Totally disagree Otto. Bordeaux has great deals at all price levels. It is nothing like Napa where everything is 2x overpriced or like Burgundy where you pay a lot to get a unique experience but performance is inconsistent. Bordeaux offers all kinds of value for money propositions that simply cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. (If you like the style of course). See Rob’s example of 2016 Branaire Ducru at $50 – I have had that wine and it’s fantastic. Try that wine and tell me whether you’d prefer some souped-up Argentine Malbec for the price. Or the bottles of 2000 Lanessan that I have been enjoying recently. Those were I think $12/bottle at release, $25-30 a bottle recently, and are crisp, clean, pure, beautiful wines that offer a perfect balance between elegant fruit and some aged complexity. There are many other examples I or others could give.

I totally agree with this. I think the problem is that some bordeaux are clearly over priced (well, over priced in my book anyway). But if you are careful and know what you are doing, you can find some great values, particularly in the 20-50 range in my experience. The same is true for California (maybe not Napa, but even there you can find some decent values). Having said that, I do think there are screaming quality deals from other regions also – which is I think what Otto is referencing. Spain, Italy, South Africa. Each of those has their crazy high end priced wines, but they each have lots of really solid less expensive values. To be a bit more specific, the bottles of Cantemerle, Sociando Mallet, Haut Bailly, and Meyney (just to name a few) that I have had from the 90s to more recent vintages, are great values – and I would be hard pressed to find the same quality, at the same price, in almost any region (of course I am sure there must be something out there that can compete, but the difficulty of finding it will probably outweigh the value of the catch).

[Robert.A.Jr]

Totally disagree Otto. Bordeaux has great deals at all price levels. It is nothing like Napa where everything is 2x overpriced or like Burgundy where you pay a lot to get a unique experience but performance is inconsistent. Bordeaux offers all kinds of value for money propositions that simply cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. (If you like the style of course). See Rob’s example of 2016 Branaire Ducru at $50 – I have had that wine and it’s fantastic. Try that wine and tell me whether you’d prefer some souped-up Argentine Malbec for the price. Or the bottles of 2000 Lanessan that I have been enjoying recently. Those were I think $12/bottle at release, $25-30 a bottle recently, and are crisp, clean, pure, beautiful wines that offer a perfect balance between elegant fruit and some aged complexity. There are many other examples I or others could give.

100%

[O.G_Nikolai]

Interesting question. Depends on your budget i suppose. Petrus, VCC, Ausone, Cheval Blanc, Latour , Lafite, Magaux maybe, but also Meyney, Sociando Mallet, Beychevelle, La Lagune, Giscours, Trottevielle and Plince.
Try to focus on value for money wines in terms of value elite vintages. 2019 is one of these i think. You will find some excellent stuff there fore sure. Avoid fake vintages like 2017.

[Mark_Golodetz]

There are so many good producers in Bordeaux (it probably offers the best deals in high-end wine) that it’s hard to generalize. I think the key distinction is whether you are looking for 1) the best cab blend in the world at some $25 to $50 price point – Bordeaux offers many candidates, or 2) something just as good as a super high end first growth/Cheval Blanc type wine for one-third the price – Bordeaux offers a lot of those too. But they are pretty different things to pursue because the second category is only a “value” in a relative sense, it is a $150-200 wine as good as a $600 wine, or perhaps a $300 wine as good as a $900-1000 wine.

Does this translate to “high-end wine” meaning either The Best Cab Blend or wines that cost hundreds of euros?

While there are a handful of wines that are both terrific in quality and priced relatively modestly in relation to their level of quality, in my books Bordeaux offers probably the worst deals after Napa and Burgundy. I mean almost any region offers better value for money than those three regions. These regions can produce some outrageously impressive wines, but more often than not you have to pay a pretty penny for those.

Champagne? Each producer can release millions of bottle annually. When is the last time you taste a great bottle of champagne for $50?

We drink Louis Roederer brut regularly. At $35 a bottle by the case, it is a really good borderline great bottle of Champagne. The gap between the top NVs and the Tete de Cuvée is I think smaller in Champagne than most regions.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Totally disagree Otto. Bordeaux has great deals at all price levels. It is nothing like Napa where everything is 2x overpriced or like Burgundy where you pay a lot to get a unique experience but performance is inconsistent. Bordeaux offers all kinds of value for money propositions that simply cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. (If you like the style of course). See Rob’s example of 2016 Branaire Ducru at $50 – I have had that wine and it’s fantastic. Try that wine and tell me whether you’d prefer some souped-up Argentine Malbec for the price. Or the bottles of 2000 Lanessan that I have been enjoying recently. Those were I think $12/bottle at release, $25-30 a bottle recently, and are crisp, clean, pure, beautiful wines that offer a perfect balance between elegant fruit and some aged complexity. There are many other examples I or others could give.

Agreed. In Bordeaux, there a major price differential between wines of equal quality based on production. It’s hard to explain otherwise why Petrus is twice or three times the cost of Latour, or Le Pin the same multiple over Lafite.

I think of the 1855 classification as a marketing tool; plenty of great wines, second to fifth growths that cost a fraction of what the firsts go for. And lower down in the $40-60 range, there are plenty of lovely wines; and for my palate anyway, beat the hell out of wines from Napa and Chile, Australia and Italian Super Tuscans.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Totally disagree Otto. Bordeaux has great deals at all price levels. It is nothing like Napa where everything is 2x overpriced or like Burgundy where you pay a lot to get a unique experience but performance is inconsistent. Bordeaux offers all kinds of value for money propositions that simply cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. (If you like the style of course). See Rob’s example of 2016 Branaire Ducru at $50 – I have had that wine and it’s fantastic. Try that wine and tell me whether you’d prefer some souped-up Argentine Malbec for the price. Or the bottles of 2000 Lanessan that I have been enjoying recently. Those were I think $12/bottle at release, $25-30 a bottle recently, and are crisp, clean, pure, beautiful wines that offer a perfect balance between elegant fruit and some aged complexity. There are many other examples I or others could give.

I’m fully aware there are some great deals to be had in Bordeaux and I enjoy myself Lanessan, which I consider both delightful and reasonably priced. However, Bordeaux has increased tremendously in priced for the past 20 years or so while most of the world’s great regions have not, so in that sense I think Bordeaux is anything but good value.

And your souped-up Argentine Malbec is a downright hilarious example. That’s a style I wouldn’t buy even at $10, why would I buy such wine at $50? However, a terrific, old-school red from Southwest France at $15-20 that can offer same kind of quality, complexity and thrill at third the price is a whole another story.

Champagne? Each producer can release millions of bottle annually. When is the last time you taste a great bottle of champagne for $50?

Say what now? Can’t remember time when I bought Champagne from a producer that could produce over 100,000 bottles annually, let alone millions. And most of those tend to hover around $50 or less. It’s very rarely I buy stuff that’s above $60-70.

So when it comes to the last time I had a great Champagne for $50, probably it was a month or two back. I don’t drink bubblies that often.

[MChang]

Totally disagree Otto. Bordeaux has great deals at all price levels. It is nothing like Napa where everything is 2x overpriced or like Burgundy where you pay a lot to get a unique experience but performance is inconsistent. Bordeaux offers all kinds of value for money propositions that simply cannot be replicated anywhere in the world. (If you like the style of course). See Rob’s example of 2016 Branaire Ducru at $50 – I have had that wine and it’s fantastic. Try that wine and tell me whether you’d prefer some souped-up Argentine Malbec for the price. Or the bottles of 2000 Lanessan that I have been enjoying recently. Those were I think $12/bottle at release, $25-30 a bottle recently, and are crisp, clean, pure, beautiful wines that offer a perfect balance between elegant fruit and some aged complexity. There are many other examples I or others could give.

I’m fully aware there are some great deals to be had in Bordeaux and I enjoy myself Lanessan, which I consider both delightful and reasonably priced. However, Bordeaux has increased tremendously in priced for the past 20 years or so while most of the world’s great regions have not, so in that sense I think Bordeaux is anything but good value.

And your souped-up Argentine Malbec is a downright hilarious example. That’s a style I wouldn’t buy even at $10, why would I buy such wine at $50? However, a terrific, old-school red from Southwest France at $15-20 that can offer same kind of quality, complexity and thrill at third the price is a whole another story.

Champagne? Each producer can release millions of bottle annually. When is the last time you taste a great bottle of champagne for $50?

Say what now? Can’t remember time when I bought Champagne from a producer that could produce over 100,000 bottles annually, let alone millions. And most of those tend to hover around $50 or less. It’s very rarely I buy stuff that’s above $60-70.

So when it comes to the last time I had a great Champagne for $50, probably it was a month or two back. I don’t drink bubblies that often.

I think if anything bdx on the top level (except some pomerol and right bank) hasn’t appreciated as much as other regions. Compare 2005 bdx to 2005 burgundy or northern Rhone…

[Robert.A.Jr]

100%, Mr. Chang. And some Bordeaux releases in 2018 and 2019 are less! Burgs and Northern Rhônes - at least the premium ones - have skyrocketed.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I think if anything bdx on the top level (except some pomerol and right bank) hasn’t appreciated as much as other regions. Compare 2005 bdx to 2005 burgundy or northern Rhone…

I actually pointed out earlier that Burgundy is even worse place for value. And fully agree with N. Rhône skyrocketing in price - most likely I’ll need to remove the region from my radar, unless I can find some terrific, reasonably priced upstart.

I’m also getting a bit worried how Barolo and Barbaresco (and, to lesser extent, the surrounding Nebbiolo appellations) are constantly increasing in price. Fortunately there are still tons of world-class wines that can be had at around or under $30 for now.

And while the top level Bdx might have appreciated much less for the past 15 years, they skyrocketed to ridiculous levels during the first 5 years of this millennium. The price alone is one of the key reasons I basically never buy Bordeaux for myself.

[Craig_G]

When is the last time you taste a great bottle of champagne for $50?

Yesterday?

[michael_holmstrom]

I think super seconds or their equivalent in right bank wines are probably the right bet. First growths in weak vintages can be very good, but the starting price is usually more like $350-400 and I don’t think they’re worth it unless you really want a first growth. For example in the last few years I’ve had 1994 Haut Brion and 1999 Margaux. Both excellent wines, but you can easily find equal quality in lower ranked wines from better vintages.

I think there’s a sweet spot in mature or close to mature vintages which are not at the very top of the vintage charts, for instance 2001 Pichon Lalande, 2004 Vieux Chateau Certan and 2006 La Conseillante are wines I’ve had that are really excellent and drink very well, but will still age well for many years. There are lots of other choices in the super seconds.

this is a tough call. With limited funds, do you buy a few bottles of 2001 Pichon Lalande for $150 ea. or a few bottles of the 2019 futures for $150 ea. which is a decidedly much higher scoring wine?..

[R_Frankel]

I think super seconds or their equivalent in right bank wines are probably the right bet. First growths in weak vintages can be very good, but the starting price is usually more like $350-400 and I don’t think they’re worth it unless you really want a first growth. For example in the last few years I’ve had 1994 Haut Brion and 1999 Margaux. Both excellent wines, but you can easily find equal quality in lower ranked wines from better vintages.

I think there’s a sweet spot in mature or close to mature vintages which are not at the very top of the vintage charts, for instance 2001 Pichon Lalande, 2004 Vieux Chateau Certan and 2006 La Conseillante are wines I’ve had that are really excellent and drink very well, but will still age well for many years. There are lots of other choices in the super seconds.

this is a tough call. With limited funds, do you buy a few bottles of 2001 Pichon Lalande for $150 ea. or a few bottles of the 2019 futures for $150 ea. which is a decidedly much higher scoring wine?..

It’s questions like this that cause your cellar to go from 100 to 500 bottles.

[Robert.A.Jr]

I think super seconds or their equivalent in right bank wines are probably the right bet. First growths in weak vintages can be very good, but the starting price is usually more like $350-400 and I don’t think they’re worth it unless you really want a first growth. For example in the last few years I’ve had 1994 Haut Brion and 1999 Margaux. Both excellent wines, but you can easily find equal quality in lower ranked wines from better vintages.

I think there’s a sweet spot in mature or close to mature vintages which are not at the very top of the vintage charts, for instance 2001 Pichon Lalande, 2004 Vieux Chateau Certan and 2006 La Conseillante are wines I’ve had that are really excellent and drink very well, but will still age well for many years. There are lots of other choices in the super seconds.

this is a tough call. With limited funds, do you buy a few bottles of 2001 Pichon Lalande for $150 ea. or a few bottles of the 2019 futures for $150 ea. which is a decidedly much higher scoring wine?..

Depends on you age!

[michael_holmstrom]

I think super seconds or their equivalent in right bank wines are probably the right bet. First growths in weak vintages can be very good, but the starting price is usually more like $350-400 and I don’t think they’re worth it unless you really want a first growth. For example in the last few years I’ve had 1994 Haut Brion and 1999 Margaux. Both excellent wines, but you can easily find equal quality in lower ranked wines from better vintages.

I think there’s a sweet spot in mature or close to mature vintages which are not at the very top of the vintage charts, for instance 2001 Pichon Lalande, 2004 Vieux Chateau Certan and 2006 La Conseillante are wines I’ve had that are really excellent and drink very well, but will still age well for many years. There are lots of other choices in the super seconds.

this is a tough call. With limited funds, do you buy a few bottles of 2001 Pichon Lalande for $150 ea. or a few bottles of the 2019 futures for $150 ea. which is a decidedly much higher scoring wine?..

It’s questions like this that cause your cellar to go from 100 to 500 bottles.

Very great point!

[Randy_C]

One last thought I had because I noticed it again today: Slightly outside the cap here but if you’re yearning for essentially first growth pedigree and want to stay as close as possible to that price range, I really think the 2014 La Mission Haut Brion is an extreme bargain (relatively speaking of course!) as it can be consistently found for around $220.

[Mark_Golodetz]

One last thought I had because I noticed it again today: Slightly outside the cap here but if you’re yearning for essentially first growth pedigree and want to stay as close as possible to that price range, I really think the 2014 La Mission Haut Brion is an extreme bargain (relatively speaking of course!) as it can be consistently found for around $220.

My favorite la Mission since 2005. They have upped ripeness generally, not to this particular chateau’s advantage.