Burgundian Recommendations for California Oregon Pinots

[J_Cangiano]

I just did a horizontal tasting of all 2017 Cristom pinots, and I swear in a blind tasting you’d think these were from burgundy. I also really like Big Table Farm pinot’s, and Love and Squalor.

[James_Lyon]

Marcus Goodfellow’s pinots capture a-d of your criteria better than any other Oregon producer imo.

My experience is more limited with them but the few Arterberry Maresh pinots I’ve tasted have also had beautifully pure red fruit.

As much as I enjoy Walter Scott, Evesham Wood, and several other top Eola Amity AVA producers, the terroir there doesn’t produce wines with the sappy red fruit character in your criteria. They tend to be darker fruited but they do possess cool climate elegance and minerality. Ribbon Ridge and Dundee Hills AVAs tend to produce more red fruited pinots.

Oddly enough, I received an email this week from Elk Cove promoting their soil trilogy wines. The email discussed how each soil type leaves it’s own signature on fruit character. The soil type characteristics are as follows:

Jory Soil (Volcanic) = Red Fruit
Laurelwood Soil (Windblown Silt) = Blue Fruit
Willakenzie Soil (Sedimentary Marine) = Black Fruit

And the email included a link to a recent thesis by the now Dr. Kat Barnard, The Terroir of Pinot Noir Wine in the Willamette Valley, Oregon :
A Broad Analysis of Vineyard Soils, Grape Juice and Wine
Chemistry. If interested, I’ll be glad to provide a link via PM.

If you are looking for the red cherry characteristics, I would focus on the Dundee Hills. The volcanic soils are prominent in the Dundee Hills, but they are located in some other pockets of the valley as well. As others have suggested, Goodfellow, Eyrie, Patricia Green, Belle Pente, Cameron, Arterberry Maresh, Kelley Fox etc. have excellent bottlings from the Dundee Hills and I agree that Ribbon Ridge can provide that red fruit characteristic as well. I can still recall a 2007 PGC Estate Etzel Block from many years ago. Strawberry Fields forever. As Rich commented, hopefully a bottling from Oregon can scratch the itch.

James

[Matthew_King]

+1
A lot of criteria to look through when you can just go to burgundy and get what you are looking for.
Plenty of awesome Oregon pinots… not sure any producer really truly hits the same way as a Burg. For me that’s perfectly fine as well.

Agreed, I like my Oregon wines to taste like they are from Oregon.

Exactly. I would think it should be considered a failure for an Oregon wine to taste like Burgundy. How can a Pinot based wine be really good if it is not true to its terroir?

I don’t think the OP is looking for wine that tastes “just like” Burgundy, merely ones that share similar traits to those that he appreciates from France.

I have similar instincts at times … liking the California fruit but looking for more Old World winemaking to tame some of its natural ebullience.

To use an analogy, I may like Godard films so I ask cineastes if any US filmmakers are making movies in a similar style.

Let’s say someone tells me to watch a Malick film. When I watch one, I don’t expect to hear French in the theater but I can appreciate the director’s European sensibility.

And to answer original question: Thomas, Au Bon Climat, Ceritas, Arcadian

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

+1
A lot of criteria to look through when you can just go to burgundy and get what you are looking for.
Plenty of awesome Oregon pinots… not sure any producer really truly hits the same way as a Burg. For me that’s perfectly fine as well.

Agreed, I like my Oregon wines to taste like they are from Oregon.

Exactly. I would think it should be considered a failure for an Oregon wine to taste like Burgundy. How can a Pinot based wine be really good if it is not true to its terroir?

It’s funny how terroir can be a little bit like religion. It’s a beautiful thing until someone starts telling you how it has to be…

[Todd_Hamina]

Here’s a handy tip. Go the the Wine Spectator Vintage Chart and look for vintages they rate as sub par. Buy those from any producer.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

I don’t know another red grape that produces such a multitude of personalities as Pinot Noir.

Burgundy, imo, runs the gamut of expression. From ethereally red fruited in Mercurey to dark, earthy wines of Clos Vougeot. Producers such as Claude Dugat make dark, massive. purple, modern wines and Chandon de Briailles makes elegant, structured red fruited wines at the far end of the spectrum.

In Oregon, given the age of the Willamette Valley as a wine producing region…”branding” us with requirements of typicity based upon so little actual experience is like suggesting that free throws in basketball are a failure if they aren’t taken underhand.

Given the vast range of expression of site in Pinot Noir, the idea that there’s no crossover in our Venn diagram with Burgundy is foolish. Suggesting that it’s a failure for me, if I produce a wine that tastes more like Chandon de Briailles than Archery Summit…drink the wines you like, and leave it alone.

But maybe keep in mind that no one tastes more than 1-2% of a single regions production in any meaningful way. So when you say, Oregon Pinot Noir should taste like Oregon Pinot Noir, you mean that it should taste the way Oregon tastes in your experience. Which is different from how Oregon tastes.

[John_Peacock]

Based on the original description of what the OP is looking for, I’d suggest Ayoub. Not what I would normally consider “burgundian”, but checks many of the boxes in the original list.

[Sean_S]

These CA producers fit the bill from my perspective.
Kutch, Briceland, Sandler, Mason Wines,ABC, Whitcraft, Arcadian and some Birichino.

[Chris_Seiber]

I don’t think the OP is looking for wine that tastes “just like” Burgundy, merely ones that share similar traits to those that he appreciates from France.

I have similar instincts at times … liking the California fruit but looking for more Old World winemaking to tame some of its natural ebullience.

To use an analogy, I may like Godard films so I ask cineastes if any US filmmakers are making movies in a similar style.

Let’s say someone tells me to watch a Malick film. When I watch one, I don’t expect to hear French in the theater but I can appreciate the director’s European sensibility.

And to answer original question: Thomas, Au Bon Climat, Ceritas, Arcadian

The OP can speak for himself, but I also think this is what he means. The question isn’t “I want something indistinguishable from Burgundy but from somewhere else besides Burgundy.” It’s “if I’m someone who likes Burgundy, what are pinots from California and Oregon that are more likely to appeal to me relative to the overall world of good CA and OR pinot, and even though I understand they won’t be indistinguishable from Burgundy and that isn’t my objective here.”

Having said that, I fooled (and impressed) some hard core, highly experienced Burg collectors with a 2011 Cameron Clos Electrique in a blind tasting.

Clos Saron from the Sierra Foothills is another one that might appeal to people who like Burgs. Arcadian is a great choice, especially when you consider the aging potential (and the ability to still buy older vintages from the winery and at retail, without crazy markups).

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

I just did a horizontal tasting of all 2017 Cristom pinots, and I swear in a blind tasting you’d think these were from burgundy. I also really like Big Table Farm pinot’s, and Love and Squalor.

Jesse, it can be helpful to try Pinots blind and with actual Burgundy. I experienced this at Cristom a few years ago during an IPNC field trip. Blind tasted some Cristom along with CA Pinots and Domaine Dublere. Educational. With all of Cristom’s whole clusters, they’re more like L’Arlot IMHO.

RT

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

But maybe keep in mind that no one tastes more than 1-2% of a single regions production in any meaningful way. So when you say, Oregon Pinot Noir should taste like Oregon Pinot Noir, you mean that it should taste the way Oregon tastes in your experience. Which is different from how Oregon tastes.

Very good point Marcus… a bit like Jim Anderson’s rule of tasting 100+ different Pinots from an OR vintage if you want to claim to have an understanding of it.

Back when I was racking up big tasting numbers, it was never 1% of OR production. It’s incredibly challenging to appreciate and evaluate the variety of styles and Pinot characteristics across the WV in a single vintage, let alone multiple. As a consumer, it’s easy to discard a lot of chaff (not to mention giving short shrift to way too many) and dial in preferences based on firsthand experiences and personal bias. It’s fun…but a lot of homework.

RT

[Mark_Y]

Given the vast range of expression of site in Pinot Noir, the idea that there’s no crossover in our Venn diagram with Burgundy is foolish.

This i agree with… there are overlaps in flavor / smell b/c well ultimately it’s the SAME grape.
To me if the question is: What are some OR/CA pinot producers that have x.y.z characteristics… that’s a fair question…
All respect to the OP… the OP question is quite a long list of factors, which gets a bit odd… b/c to satisfy all A-J criteria, why not just get Burgundy

Always gonna be dudes who want their $50 Champagne to replicate Salon.

[Rick_Allen]

I think there are many more similarities between Burgundies and Oregon Pinots than there differences. I’ve had too many times when wines from the two regions were indistinguishable when tasted blind. I do think that some Burgundies can have a hard edge that I find appealing. I think this is a water composition thing - Burgundy’s hard water vs Oregon relatively soft water (usually). I also find some Burgundies to be more tannic than I care for, another difference I ascribe to the water differences. I particularly see these differences, surprisingly, in Volnay (Lafon and D’Angerville) while I have found less difference in Beaune (Drouhin and others) and Cambolle (Dujac and Drouhin)

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Marcus Goodfellow’s pinots capture a-d of your criteria better than any other Oregon producer imo.

My experience is more limited with them but the few Arterberry Maresh pinots I’ve tasted have also had beautifully pure red fruit.

As much as I enjoy Walter Scott, Evesham Wood, and several other top Eola Amity AVA producers, the terroir there doesn’t produce wines with the sappy red fruit character in your criteria. They tend to be darker fruited but they do possess cool climate elegance and minerality. Ribbon Ridge and Dundee Hills AVAs tend to produce more red fruited pinots.

Oddly enough, I received an email this week from Elk Cove promoting their soil trilogy wines. The email discussed how each soil type leaves it’s own signature on fruit character. The soil type characteristics are as follows:

Jory Soil (Volcanic) = Red Fruit
Laurelwood Soil (Windblown Silt) = Blue Fruit
Willakenzie Soil (Sedimentary Marine) = Black Fruit

And the email included a link to a recent thesis by the now Dr. Kat Barnard, The Terroir of Pinot Noir Wine in the Willamette Valley, Oregon :
A Broad Analysis of Vineyard Soils, Grape Juice and Wine
Chemistry. If interested, I’ll be glad to provide a link via PM.

If you are looking for the red cherry characteristics, I would focus on the Dundee Hills. The volcanic soils are prominent in the Dundee Hills, but they are located in some other pockets of the valley as well. As others have suggested, Goodfellow, Eyrie, Patricia Green, Belle Pente, Cameron, Arterberry Maresh, Kelley Fox etc. have excellent bottlings from the Dundee Hills and I agree that Ribbon Ridge can provide that red fruit characteristic as well. I can still recall a 2007 PGC Estate Etzel Block from many years ago. Strawberry Fields forever. As Rich commented, hopefully a bottling from Oregon can scratch the itch.

James

Hi James,

Just as a heads up, I believe that PGC’s estate vineyard is on sedimentary soils in the Willakenzie family. Whistling Ridge, directly above PGC, is on a soil type called Wellsdale(one of the sedimentary soils that broke out from the Willakenzie family) and as you know is often quite red fruited. I have tons of respect for the Campbell family and Elk Cove, but while wineries do their best to be knowledgeable, compartmentalizing Pinot never really seems to hold up very long on examination(imo).

I tend to view aspect and elevation as equally impactful on the red/blue/black spectrum as soil as well(and pick date as well). The Dundee Hills red fruits are, imo, somewhat more likely coming from vineyards higher up the hills-e.g. Abbey Ridge. Also my understanding is that the Thomas vineyard, producing some beautifully red fruited wines in the Dundee Hills is one of the few DH vineyards on a protrusion of sedimentary soils. (The volcanic soils came from basalt flows as the Willamette Valley was lifted up by plate tectonics from shallow sea floor, so the sedimentary soils are older and can “protrude” through the volcanic soils in places. Or mix right in in some others.

Also, I don’t really love talking about clones, but it’s hard to argue against them having an impact on the flavor spectrum a wines evolves to. The 1018 Pinot Noit clone at Deux Vert produced remarkably red fruited wines from an AVA (Yamhill-Carlton) that I generalize as having more blue-black tones.

[Jim_Stewart]

I think there are many more similarities between Burgundies and Oregon Pinots than there differences. I’ve had too many times when wines from the two regions were indistinguishable when tasted blind. I do think that some Burgundies can have a hard edge that I find appealing. I think this is a water composition thing - Burgundy’s hard water vs Oregon relatively soft water (usually). I also find some Burgundies to be more tannic than I care for, another difference I ascribe to the water differences. I particularly see these differences, surprisingly, in Volnay (Lafon and D’Angerville) while I have found less difference in Beaune (Drouhin and others) and Cambolle (Dujac and Drouhin)

(Off topic)
Rick, isn’t water composition a big consideration in beer making also? Especially when making a version of a well known beer made elsewhere. The same “recipe” with different water will give a different beer.

[Sc0tt_F_tzgerald]

For Cali wines, I think Rhys, Kutch, and Littorai check most, if not all, of your boxes.

[Rick_Allen]

I think there are many more similarities between Burgundies and Oregon Pinots than there differences. I’ve had too many times when wines from the two regions were indistinguishable when tasted blind. I do think that some Burgundies can have a hard edge that I find appealing. I think this is a water composition thing - Burgundy’s hard water vs Oregon relatively soft water (usually). I also find some Burgundies to be more tannic than I care for, another difference I ascribe to the water differences. I particularly see these differences, surprisingly, in Volnay (Lafon and D’Angerville) while I have found less difference in Beaune (Drouhin and others) and Cambolle (Dujac and Drouhin)

(Off topic)
Rick, isn’t water composition a big consideration in beer making also? Especially when making a version of a well known beer made elsewhere. The same “recipe” with different water will give a different beer.

Huge difference. It’s one reason why have a hard time making a really good German-style Helles. The Helles needs that hard edge that you get with more calcareous water, and we just don’t have that without getting into a bunch of water chemistry that I’d rather avoid.

This is why I started thinking about the differences that I tasted between some red Burgundies and Oregon Pinots.

[Scott_Tallman]

Marcus Goodfellow’s pinots capture a-d of your criteria better than any other Oregon producer imo.

My experience is more limited with them but the few Arterberry Maresh pinots I’ve tasted have also had beautifully pure red fruit.

As much as I enjoy Walter Scott, Evesham Wood, and several other top Eola Amity AVA producers, the terroir there doesn’t produce wines with the sappy red fruit character in your criteria. They tend to be darker fruited but they do possess cool climate elegance and minerality. Ribbon Ridge and Dundee Hills AVAs tend to produce more red fruited pinots.

Oddly enough, I received an email this week from Elk Cove promoting their soil trilogy wines. The email discussed how each soil type leaves it’s own signature on fruit character. The soil type characteristics are as follows:

Jory Soil (Volcanic) = Red Fruit
Laurelwood Soil (Windblown Silt) = Blue Fruit
Willakenzie Soil (Sedimentary Marine) = Black Fruit

And the email included a link to a recent thesis by the now Dr. Kat Barnard, The Terroir of Pinot Noir Wine in the Willamette Valley, Oregon :
A Broad Analysis of Vineyard Soils, Grape Juice and Wine
Chemistry. If interested, I’ll be glad to provide a link via PM.

If you are looking for the red cherry characteristics, I would focus on the Dundee Hills. The volcanic soils are prominent in the Dundee Hills, but they are located in some other pockets of the valley as well. As others have suggested, Goodfellow, Eyrie, Patricia Green, Belle Pente, Cameron, Arterberry Maresh, Kelley Fox etc. have excellent bottlings from the Dundee Hills and I agree that Ribbon Ridge can provide that red fruit characteristic as well. I can still recall a 2007 PGC Estate Etzel Block from many years ago. Strawberry Fields forever. As Rich commented, hopefully a bottling from Oregon can scratch the itch.

James

Hi James,

Just as a heads up, I believe that PGC’s estate vineyard is on sedimentary soils in the Willakenzie family. Whistling Ridge, directly above PGC, is on a soil type called Wellsdale(one of the sedimentary soils that broke out from the Willakenzie family) and as you know is often quite red fruited. I have tons of respect for the Campbell family and Elk Cove, but while wineries do their best to be knowledgeable but compartmentalizing Pinot never really seems to hold up very long on examination(imo).

I tend to view aspect and elevation as equally impactful on the red/blue/black spectrum as soil as well(and pick date as well). The Dundee Hills red fruits are somewhat more likely coming from vineyards higher up the hills-e.g. Abbey Ridge. Also my understanding is that the Thomas vineyard, producing some beautifully red fruited wines in the Dundee Hills is one of the few DH vineyards on a protrusion of sedimentary soils. (Yes, the volcanic soils came from basalt flows as the Willamette Valley was lifted up by plate tectonics from shallow sea floor, so the sedimentary soils are older and can “protrude” through the volcanic soils in places. Or mix right in in some others.

Your understanding is correct per Mr. Thomas. IIRC, he wanted to avoid the volcanic soils typically associated with the DH, so never thought he’s end up planting there. Then stumbled on land that had what he wanted despite being atypical for that area.

[Andrew_Morris]

These CA producers fit the bill from my perspective.
Kutch, Briceland, Sandler, Mason Wines,ABC, Whitcraft, Arcadian and some Birichino.

Hi Sean,

Thanks for the mention. I think it depends on the specific vineyard. Of those from which we produce, Ronda’s has most in common with the French Version of PN.

[James_Lyon]

Oddly enough, I received an email this week from Elk Cove promoting their soil trilogy wines. The email discussed how each soil type leaves it’s own signature on fruit character. The soil type characteristics are as follows:

Jory Soil (Volcanic) = Red Fruit
Laurelwood Soil (Windblown Silt) = Blue Fruit
Willakenzie Soil (Sedimentary Marine) = Black Fruit

And the email included a link to a recent thesis by the now Dr. Kat Barnard, The Terroir of Pinot Noir Wine in the Willamette Valley, Oregon :
A Broad Analysis of Vineyard Soils, Grape Juice and Wine
Chemistry. If interested, I’ll be glad to provide a link via PM.

If you are looking for the red cherry characteristics, I would focus on the Dundee Hills. The volcanic soils are prominent in the Dundee Hills, but they are located in some other pockets of the valley as well. As others have suggested, Goodfellow, Eyrie, Patricia Green, Belle Pente, Cameron, Arterberry Maresh, Kelley Fox etc. have excellent bottlings from the Dundee Hills and I agree that Ribbon Ridge can provide that red fruit characteristic as well. I can still recall a 2007 PGC Estate Etzel Block from many years ago. Strawberry Fields forever. As Rich commented, hopefully a bottling from Oregon can scratch the itch.

James

Hi James,

Just as a heads up, I believe that PGC’s estate vineyard is on sedimentary soils in the Willakenzie family. Whistling Ridge, directly above PGC, is on a soil type called Wellsdale(one of the sedimentary soils that broke out from the Willakenzie family) and as you know is often quite red fruited. I have tons of respect for the Campbell family and Elk Cove, but while wineries do their best to be knowledgeable but compartmentalizing Pinot never really seems to hold up very long on examination(imo).

I tend to view aspect and elevation as equally impactful on the red/blue/black spectrum as soil as well(and pick date as well). The Dundee Hills red fruits are somewhat more likely coming from vineyards higher up the hills-e.g. Abbey Ridge. Also my understanding is that the Thomas vineyard, producing some beautifully red fruited wines in the Dundee Hills is one of the few DH vineyards on a protrusion of sedimentary soils. (Yes, the volcanic soils came from basalt flows as the Willamette Valley was lifted up by plate tectonics from shallow sea floor, so the sedimentary soils are older and can “protrude” through the volcanic soils in places. Or mix right in in some others.

Your understanding is correct per Mr. Thomas. IIRC, he wanted to avoid the volcanic soils typically associated with the DH, so never thought he’s end up planting there. Then stumbled on land that had what he wanted despite being atypical for that area.

Marcus and Scott, thanks for the follow-up. From my previous visits with JT, I can also confirm that the Thomas vineyard is composed of Volcanic and Sedimentary soil types. Yes, it’s my understanding that JT was looking for a combination of soil types for his vineyard.

Yeah, I was pretty sure that the PGC Estate was composed of sedimentary soils. I thought that the thesis was interesting and somewhat timely considering the OP’s request. I’m sure that there are lots of additional factors to consider besides soil composition.