California Cult

[Dan_Kravitz]

I doubt the newer Harlan’s are bigger than the older ones. Certainly the 90’s Harlan’s were extravagant wines, and pleasing to me.

Bryant however made perhaps the finest Cult wine for with their 1994 and 1995. Helen Turley!

Newer Harlans since at least 2006 are more elegant and structured, with less overt ripeness. Peak ripeness for Harlan was 1997, in my view. Honestly, I adore the 1993-1996 Harlans that still had a nice chunk of Merlot in them. Same with the Lail until 2002. I little Merlot goes a lonnnnnng way to mellowing out potential excesses in our neck of the woods. Would kill to have 5-10% Merlot in my own Cab, except no one is gonna sell me 1/4 ton of top Merlot fruit and even if they did it would be hard to ferment it.

Roy,

‘Hot corn, cold corn, bring along a demi-john’ (maybe with the top sawed off).

Surely you can find both grapes and a way to ferment them.

Dan Kravitz

[MikeL238]

Do you think Araujo’s style changed since the takeover?

Mike,
I don’t swim in those waters any more. My general experience with Eisele is the older the better, love the old Phelps bottlings. I drank my stash way too soon.

Brent,

I’m with you on Eisele and Phelps.

I have had a strange trifecta. In three cases I opened a legend, 1984 Ridge Monte Bello Cabernet side-by-side with three other equally worthy California Cabs.

One comparison was '84 Monte Bello with '84 Heitz Martha’s. Heitz was preferred.
One was '84 Monte Bellow with '84 Mount Eden. Mount Eden was preferred.
One was ''84 Monte Bellow with '78 Phelps Eisele. Phelps Eisele was preferred.

That is saying a lot.

Even if I stretched the budget to include current releases, at 73 years of age I am dubious about being able to enjoy them at maturity.

Dan Kravitz

Dan, that must have been some experience! Always loved Phelps Eisele-especially '84 to '87 and '85 Heitz Martha’s has been one of my all time favorites. Cheers to you!

[Reginald_Wheeler]

I have never liked that term - CULT WINE - but I think there are only a few now that fall into that category for me.
They are:
Abreu
Aubert ? (possibly)
Colgin ? (probably still)
Harlan
Marcassin
Screaming Eagle
Sine Qua Non

I think BRYANT is OUT. And quite few others too.

[YLee]

Do you guys consider Sloan a “cult” wine?

[Mel_Knox]

I have Colgin, Far Niente and Araujo wines from the '90s in my cellar and I treasure every bottle. Before I retired I sold Taransaud barrels to a lot of these people. Wish I had bought more Bryant! Wish I had n t drunk my Mondavi s from that period. I am older than Dan Kravitz so I am not buying green bananas any more.

Far Niente Cab is really for people who like the way wines were made in the 70s.

Rather than cult, maybe we should talk about 'special ’ wines from single vineyards made ‘special’ winemakers. To me, cult implies a winery where people will pay almost any price. Quality is not implied. Monte Bello is not a cult wine, just a great one. We need a better word.

What about:
Roy
Kapscandy
Blankiet
Detert
Checkerboard
Mayacamas
Viader
Shafer Hillside
Continuum
Peter Michael
probably many more

[Chris_Seiber]

Newer Harlans since at least 2006 are more elegant and structured, with less overt ripeness. Peak ripeness for Harlan was 1997, in my view.

There are a lot of premium California wines in that general category. They built both lovers and haters in the late 90s and early 2000s by pushing the high end of the ripeness scale, then in the last 10-15 years have pulled back from that, often increasingly so over that period.

The detractors won’t revisit them, much less with an open mind, but that “we saw how ripe we could push it but then dialed back to a more moderate place” arc happened many places.

[HoosJustinG]

Interesting Harlan 97 is a “peak ripeness” year. From my observations, that year trades pretty high at auctions to this day in 2020, so does it still tend to age well enough despite the riper style? I actually have a single bottle of the ‘97, so if I need to drink it sooner than later, then I won’t complain!

[Robert_M_yers]

Depends if you can detect VA or not

[Adam_Frisch]

It’s funny, because I would classify Saxum, Ultramarine, Sine Qua Non, Ceritas, Antica Terra, Kutch, Arnot-Roberts, Rivers-Marie etc as cult wines.

[Marc_Hauser]

From reading this thread, it seems like the term “cult wine” is one of those wine terms that everyone kinda sorta has an instinct about what it means, but can’t objectively define it.

[R_M_Kriete]

From reading this thread, it seems like the term “cult wine” is one of those wine terms that everyone kinda sorta has an instinct about what it means, but can’t objectively define it.

Like “Natural wine”

[Jeff_M1]

From reading this thread, it seems like the term “cult wine” is one of those wine terms that everyone kinda sorta has an instinct about what it means, but can’t objectively define it.

There has to be a dollar amount where the word cult starts. Does it start with Scarecrow at $400? Or does it start with some of the big hitters above that going for $500+?

[YLee]

I define cult wine as wine that people chase for large sum of money for the allure and interest of tasting it. Supply is low and demand is very high. It doesnt necessarily mean this cult wine is better than cheaper wines. I would say “cult wine” and “label chaser” go hand in hand.

Example of French cult wine, DRC

[Mel_Knox]

To me cult wine implies lack of availability. Therefore Marcassin and SQN are the real cult wines. They have been hard to get for a long time. I’ve never sold any of my Marcassin but when I mention to a retailer or somm that I have some, they take the bait right away.

Adam, Ultramarine hasn’t been around long enough to qualify. Will they will end up making more and more wine…dunno. Saxum might qualify, hadn t thought about them. Are the others on your list hard to buy??

[Mel_Knox]

French wineries like DRC just raise their prices to keep demand in check. Is it really hard to buy the wine or is it just hard on your pocketbook??

I think of Coche or Raveneau as more cultish.

[Alex_Valdes]

French wineries like DRC just raise their prices to keep demand in check. Is it really hard to buy the wine or is it just hard on your pocketbook??

I think of Coche or Raveneau as more cultish.

I believe we’ve all been circling around cult = scarcity + rabid demand (usually, but not always, a function of expected high quality). This combination usually, but not always, drives up the price in either the primary or secondary market. Producers have dealt with this pressure differently over the years, with some raising prices to try and capture the demand while others have kept prices down as a point of principle.

Like anything that can gain such a following: wine, bands, art, watches, restaurants; we try to differentiate between (at risk of introducing another term and further complicating) “blue chip” and “cult”. While blue chips are known quantities expected to be valued and desired broadly by the community as a whole, cult carries a mystique / “in-the-know-people-know-but-not-everyone” vibe. Cult implies risk that, outside the small fierce community, the thing in question won’t be highly coveted or appreciated (so can be said about wine in general as a cult).

I think most of the California wine discussed experienced the evolution from cult to blue chip over the last 30 or so years as the respect for California wine has grown globally. These wines are widely known to the wine community at large and these producers have proven they can consistently deliver top quality wine.

Now, I would say the apex is the blue chip cult wine: this is the wine people will pay an outsized amount to have simply because it compels people to go to great lengths for it. In the watch world this is the Patek Nautilus or Aquanaut. In art this is probably Mark Rothko (I’m sure there are better examples). In California the quintessential cult blue chip wine is Screaming Eagle, in a Burgundy it is Domaine Romanee Conti’s Romanee Conti and in Bordeaux it’s probably Le Pin.

There are a good number of blue chip wines in Bordeaux with high production levels, making their quality broadly available. In California, like in Burgundy, most of the blue chip wines that have emerged have very low production, so there is a desire to call all of these blue chip wines, “cult wines” as well. That is probably technically correct, though it would be likely clearer to replace the word “cult” with “rare” or some other distinction of scarcity - I think this is what is really trying to be conveyed.

Keeping the word cult to define wines with rabid followings which may or may not have 30-200 years of track record of quality/high desire or may or may not be the most expensive would help distinguish what people are talking about.

[Mel_Knox]

Maybe cult is a bad word because in France it means religion whereas here it’s a small group off on their own trip.

To me, DRC and Lafite etc are more like religions…including the tithing.

The term cult wine often implies --at least to me anyway–something relatively new, like Harlan or SQN.

[Mel_Knox]

Maybe somebody should run a poll and
1/list a bunch of wineries
2/yea or nay…cult wine or not??

[John_Morris]

Maybe cult is a bad word because in France it means religion whereas here it’s a small group off on their own trip.

To me, DRC and Lafite etc are more like religions…including the tithing.

The term cult wine often implies --at least to me anyway–something relatively new, like Harlan or SQN.

That’s only because Napa cabs go out of fashion. Remember when Heitz Martha’s was a cult wine? And Diamond Creek. Hell, I was able to swap one bottle of Jordan 84 cab for two Cote Roties and an Egon Muller once (though that involved a buyer who had some kind of romantic experience in a cave in Greece involving a bottle of Jordan 84). When was the last time you remember anyone mentioning Jordan?

[Alex_Valdes]

Maybe cult is a bad word because in France it means religion whereas here it’s a small group off on their own trip.

To me, DRC and Lafite etc are more like religions…including the tithing.

The term cult wine often implies --at least to me anyway–something relatively new, like Harlan or SQN.

That’s only because Napa cabs go out of fashion. Remember when Heitz Martha’s was a cult wine? And Diamond Creek. Hell, I was able to swap one bottle of Jordan 84 cab for two Cote Roties and an Egon Muller once (though that involved a buyer who had some kind of romantic experience in a cave in Greece involving a bottle of Jordan 84). When was the last time you remember anyone mentioning Jordan?

Exactly - I wouldn’t call these blue chip wines as there is little certainty they will retain value/demand. Cults either burn out or turn into dominant forces.