I’ve also gotten a couple of shipments of '18 Bedrock and have to say it irritates me a bit that I have to find room for '18s already. First world problems…
Caymus is one of the last wines I’d ever choose to drink. Even so, I have a hard time vilifying them for making money with their product. Maybe there are pieces of the story I’m missing, but if the issue is making a gross syrupy glop of a wine and marketing it aggressively to willing buyers, who seem to be really happy with the end product, I don’t really see the problem. Again, I don’t pay much attention to this type of wine so maybe there are some more insidious practices of which I’m not aware.
Shameless money grabbing. The Wagners have more than enough money to not worry about aging their Cab hurting them and their cash flow.
When was this Cab bottled is my question. Is it even out of bottle shock? It appears they have less respect for their consumers than previously, at least for those who are going to be drinking the super young wine shortly after release. More knowledgeable buyers will now simply have to age their chemiCab longer at their own expense.
Obviously, they are lowering costs by cutting down on the expensive production cost cost of French Oak barrel aging, which begs the question where is their oak overtone coming from?
Perhaps they are making up for the money lost under Charlie’s watch, 1975 -1984, when they aged the SS for 48 months in Limousin barrels.
They have owned their vineyards for so long they probably have little or no vineyard debt service so $80 retail/$480 FOB per case represents monster profits, unless they refinanced which I doubt was necessary after the Meomi sale which one would think covers these expansion costs…
Is warehouse space and proper storage that expensive for them? Oh boy, not any longer!
Check this out from a winebusiness.com article:
“Caymus has tangled with Napa County officials for years over its winery in Rutherford. In 2013, Caymus paid $1 million to Napa County to settle a number of issues with its Rutherford facility. The allegations included exceeding wine production limits and building code violations, according to the complaint filed in 2013. Napa County alleged the winery exceeded production by 547,000 gallons to more than 2 million gallons a year, according to the 2013 lawsuit.”
“The wine production limit for Caymus in calendar year 2018 is 110,000 gallons,” said David Morrison, Napa County’s director of planning, building, and environmental services. In calendar year 2019, the limit will be 660,000 gallons, he also said in an email."
They now may have operational, or are in the process of completing a 500,000+ gallon winery near Fairfield and a 200,000 gallon winery on Suisun Valley Rd. outside of Napa county. Guess it must be much cheaper, huh?
Michael
The part of the story that you might be missing is the absolute shameless sell-out of the brand.
I met Charlie Wagner (Chucks father) multiple times at the old tasting room in the early 80’s. He was a gentleman farmer - as much at home in his overalls as anything. He took pride in his brand - as evidenced by the patience to age Cabernet for four years so it was made right. He was on the cover of the Wine Spectator in 1984 with the headline “Best Damn Cabernet in California” (in his overalls) and back then there were few who would argue that fact. He made just a few thousand cases of Cabernet back then. The 76 and 84 Special Selections - of which I drank over a case of each - were in fact the best wines I drank back then.
The fact that they essentially make the opposite wine now that they did then - and operate in a diametrically opposite manner to how they used to - is pathetic to me as a wine lover. From long barrel aging, and actually working in the vineyard - to adulteration and a “sell it as quick as you can philosophy” - is just damn sad.
Cheers!
I don’t get this. They’re in business. They’re not dedicated to be starving artists. “Greed” is what drives virtually every business, including those that market their virtue. While I don’t care for a single Wagner wine I’ve tried, I don’t begrudge them the fact that they’re making money selling something people apparently want. I don’t see how they’re greedier than someone who puts the wine in expensive oak for several years and charges a few hundred dollars a bottle. People on this board vie to get on mailing lists to buy wine that costs twice as much or more than Caymus and that is equally undrinkable to many other people.
Could not disagree more with you - I’m in a business where a lot of people make a lot of money. We choose to make a fair and appropriate income - and do not try to squeeze every possible dollar out of what we do. Perhaps this is why what Caymus is doing is appalling to me - it’s just the opposite of who I am and what I stand for (and apparently also what Chuck Wagners father stood for). We deliver a great product at a fair price - and make enough money that we are not in need. Lots of people operate like this - I bet you even know some.
Wait…it’s 13.9% and is getting high 80s reviews on CT??
I wanna try it!!!
Won’t support the Wagner’s after their Oregon label scandal and their retaliation to the growers.
Good point.
Greed is not good, in spite of what some appear to think.
Greg, you are absolutely right, you “don’t get this”.
A winery which hand crafted a cuvee of 1000 cases and less for 10 years under Charlie’s watch is now cranking out majorly adulterated wine in huge quantities, making lots of money annually and they are asking their customers to buy a Napa Cab just over a year from harvest. Charlie is spinning in his grave.
They own 270+ acres in Napa probably outright. They just eliminated oak barrel aging. They are expanding greatly and will try to elevate lesser growing regions where land is cheaper than Napa and will capitalize on their brand when pricing the next schlock label. Remember Meomi? That $360,000,000 sale is going to spawn zombie wines is my guess. They cheat folks and defy their permit limits and gladly pay the fines cause that money does not matter.
Crunch a few numbers and look what they have done to what once was a high quality Napa brand. Perhaps then you will get it.
Greg I completely agree with you!
They still pay for new barrels it would be their mistake if they used them for a shorter period of time…
The sale of Miomi had zero to do with Caymus or Chuck Wagner, Joey had already moved on and made that decision on his own… Same with the Oregon deal it was up to Joey and Copper Cane Wines… the grapes had smoke taint and he had every right to back out based off of their contract… not having crop insurance is ludicrous!
Chuck is one of the most humble guys I have met in the industry. He is so involved in day to day duties of his brand it’s ridiculous! Not sure how many other owners of a wine brand of his size that actually plow their own vineyards.
Lee
Two questions, if I may…
-
What does that sentence about barrels mean? I have read it three times and don’t have any idea of its intent, meaning, or context.
-
What is your relationship to Chuck? You seem to know an awful lot about them…
Thanks
Why does the relationship matter?
And at what point does making a profit become greed? When it’s 5%, 8%, 10% or some other return? Or when someone has two, five, fifty, a hundred or two hundred acres?
And if grandpa chose to make a smaller amount of wine, or perhaps couldn’t afford to make more wine, or couldn’t get the loans/investors/property/grapes/whatever to make more wine, why does the grandson need to perpetuate grandpa’s vision and suffer under the same constraints? Can’t he be his own person?
I have no idea what it means to put something on the market at a “fair” price. I understand putting something on the market for a price that will sell. When sales decline because the price is too high for the product or service, you either lower the price or lose sales. Is it more or less greedy to sell a lot of something at a small profit or a little of something at a large profit?
Everyone has their own definition of “fair”. I wouldn’t impose my definition of the word on someone else, nor call someone greedy if they charge more than I would or if they change their product.
It’s all academic because as I said, I don’t care for the wines anyway, but I don’t begrudge them their chance to make whatever they can.
The power of the market works. If the product is so bad, it will lose customers. If it is overpriced it will lose customers.
Look up the word “shill” and you’ll get the answer to your question.
13.9%. Don’t know anything about the vintage but it is certainly unusual for Caymus, if correct. Releasing so early is also strange. Greed seems unlikely. I assume they have the funds to release to a normal schedule. Otherwise they would do this in every vintage. Maybe the wine is best suited for early drinking, so why wait. Maybe they believe that the Euro tariffs provide an opportunity for <14% wines. A bit of a stretch. Not sure Caymus consumers even consider such things.
Nevin I only speak out of personal experiences with the Wagner’s for our families have been good friends since the early 1970’s. Both my father and myself have been in the industry for 50 years combined so I can understand both your thoughts as well as theirs.
My comment wasn’t here to sell their wines, but I do think Chuck is a extremely respectful man and his involvement in his business especially his vineyards is unbelievable… He often says, “we are farmers first”
I can see the frustration after the Miomi deal and then the Oregon problems but that was Copper Cane Wines not Caymus… Of course knowing them I have my own personal experiences and opinion. Greed just isn’t a word that comes to mind when I think of Chuck Wagner
My error for conflating Wagner Family wines with Joe’s wine pursuits, sorry.
After thinking about this topic overnight, understanding the release of the 2018 Napa Cab just over a year from harvest is my main point, not the the financial aspects of the Wagner’s wealth, their expansions of facilites and production numbers and guessing at their profits and whether greed is the motivation. They are in business and bottom line is the normal motivation.
In this age of natural wines rising in popularity, are they using more new technology and additives to make the wine more approachable after just over a year from harvest? Antithetical. Alice probably has some thoughts.
There are obvious benefit$ which fly in the face of traditional wine production methods and practices which also cut costs and return profits more quickly such as additional storage costs, reduced new barrel costs, recovering 2018 production costs more quickly, etc. Is this the new normal?
Is the wine going to improve after the early release? Is aging the 2018 Caymus beneficial now?
Are early drinking consumers, non cellar prone folks getting what they have grown to expect over the years, just manipulator a bit more?
The Disconnect:
Please understand as an American winosaur, Caymus holds a special place in our history. I believe the 1984 Caymus SS was the first American Spectator Wine Of the Year back in 1989. It put a Napa wine at the top of a global ranking which was a very big deal. We arrived. It was a 1000 case production which spent 48 months in oak. It was an icon.
The 2018 release is historically antithetical again.
I know, I can hear “OK Boomer” time and what happened in the days of yore is irrelevant to today, however, wine is time in a bottle.
Folks will be yearning to try oldies for even more reasons is my prediction.
Lee
Many thanks for the complete disclosure. I do appreciate the transparency.
I guess we are back to the original question - which maybe you can answer. Why are they releasing what was once a premium Napa Valley cab on the same schedule others are releasing their Sauvignon Blanc?
If using the word greed to describe this was wrong - and does not apply to Mr. Wagner - I’d admit I was wrong to use such a strong descriptor - and apologize if appropriate.
But Lee, you have to admit that it’s beyond unusual. Right?
Cheers
Nevin I think we can all agree that Caymus Cab has turned into what some might call a high end grocery store/everyday wine shop wine… that being said they have to adapt for those customers hence the lower alc.
As far as releasing a product so early I would only assume that they have sold out of the previous vintage and they would be concerned about loosing those positions on the shelf. Stores don’t like empty spaces and will fill in very quickly. That being said they have to adapt to keep up with the demand… I’m sure they use double the new barrels based off of the shorter amount of time on wood. Once again just my thoughts on the situation.