Clos St Hune: worth it?

[Alex_Rychlewski]

My 2 cents and uniquely in light of my own experience: when it comes to dry Riesling nowhere beats Alsace.

I have one bottle of CSH in my cellar, from the 97 vintage. I’ll probably open it by the end of the decade, and will let you know what I think .

Alex R.

[drsugarman]

@salilb

Hune is certainly fine stuff, but I’d have a hard time calling it ‘better’ than any of the top Austrian or German dry Rieslings. Hirtzberger Singerriedel, Prager Achleiten, FX Kellerberg and Donnhoff Hermannshohle to name a few are every bit as good if not better.

This … except my personal experience (small sample size) hasn’t seen the greatness of Donnhoff like others have. For my palate it’s F.X. Pichler Kellerberg & Hirtzberger Singerriedel that are the top echelon of Riesling and if had to be just one it would be the Singeriedel.

[salilb]

@Keith Levenberg

Is it a price argument? To a certain extent. I would probably buy some Clos Ste. Hune for my cellar if it were about $60 - i.e., if it were cheaper than Alzinger Steinertal, Pichler Kellerberg, Hirtzberger Singerriedel, etc., as well as some of the better dry options from Germany like Keller. And I’m not buying CSH at the prices it goes for – but if I had to, I would still buy some of those other rieslings at the prices CSH goes for. So it’s not really a price argument to me.

(snip)
2. The number of people who worship at the CSH altar seems to be greater than the number of people who have drank much 25+ year-old CSH, but it still strikes me for the most part that they are people who do not drink much Austrian or German wine. Let’s put it this way, show me one of those mega-cellars with a big trove of Clos Ste. Hune and you’re more likely to also find a big trove of Leflaive or Krug in it than a big trove of Alzinger or Pichler. Oh gosh, there I go again being cynical again but I think I’m right on this one.

In addition to the price, I’m not a huge fan of the idea of just forgetting CSH in a cellar for a couple of decades before there’s any point in opening a bottle (and young CSH can be austere to the point of being almost painful to drink). I love aged Riesling, but I’m a big fan of what great Riesling can offer in its youth and believe that most of the great Rieslings can provide a great deal of nuance and pleasure at a lot of different stages, rather than just 20 years after release. That’s one thing that stood out at the Steinertal dinner we did last year - there was a clear difference between the young and older Alzinger/FX Steinertal Rieslings, but the young bottles were incredibly fun to drink and certainly worth opening to enjoy.

Agreed on your second point - it’s a trend in any of the big auction house catalogues that the section of Riesling (following the big trophy Champagnes, Burgs, Guigal LaLas, etc) is almost always just limited to JJ Prum, Clos Ste. Hune and occasionally Zind-Humbrecht and Egon Muller.

[Carl_Steefel]

@Craig Gleason

@Carl Steefel

I have not tried the Frederich Emile recently, but whatever the comparison between it and the CSH is, the Freddy is a hell of deal–really only a bit more expensive than the entry Trimbach Riesling.

You must not have bought it recently either. It’s usually over $45 and the basic one is more like $15.

I was just searching for it and it shows as $48 for the 2004 in San Francisco, $38 elsewhere in the country. This contrasts with a CSH that is $150-170 in a good vintage.

The regular Riesling Reserve (this is what I was thinking of) goes for about $23 with a 10% case discount. This was the lowest price I found in the country. This was a few weeks ago, and echoed in my search today.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Bingo, Salil.

[Ian_Fitzsimmons]

I think Rick and M. Kelly between them have it right. In my (limited) experience, super-premier wines rarely rate the cost premium (Nantes wines being an exception), but there’s no substitute for direct experience, and a curious mind will splurge occasionally to find out what the best in genre is like.

[SteveC]

@Alex Rychlewski

My 2 cents and uniquely in light of my own experience: when it comes to dry Riesling nowhere beats Alsace.
Alex R.

+1

[Jay_Miller]

@Keith Levenberg

How am I arguing against terroir just because I don’t find the wine as compelling as any number of Austrian rieslings?
Maybe it’s hors classe in Alsace, maybe not, but being the best riesling in Alsace is still rather like being the best pinot noir from a region other than Burgundy.
Is it a price argument? To a certain extent. I would probably buy some Clos Ste. Hune for my cellar if it were about $60 - i.e., if it were cheaper than Alzinger Steinertal, Pichler Kellerberg, Hirtzberger Singerriedel, etc., as well as some of the better dry options from Germany like Keller. And I’m not buying CSH at the prices it goes for – but if I had to, I would still buy some of those other rieslings at the prices CSH goes for. So it’s not really a price argument to me.

I get the argument that the wine might need 25+ years to show why it’s worthwhile, although the following must be noted:

1. If that’s the case, that would make CSH literally unique among rieslings, dry or otherwise. I’m not aware of a single other example that requires that much time, as opposed to just benefitting from it. The overwhelming majority are marvelously impressive on release, even! That seems to me to be a point in their favor – a wine with a 25-year black-hole period seems to me less valuable than one you can drink at nearly any point in your and their lives.
2. The number of people who worship at the CSH altar seems to be greater than the number of people who have drank much 25+ year-old CSH, but it still strikes me for the most part that they are people who do not drink much Austrian or German wine. Let’s put it this way, show me one of those mega-cellars with a big trove of Clos Ste. Hune and you’re more likely to also find a big trove of Leflaive or Krug in it than a big trove of Alzinger or Pichler. Oh gosh, there I go again being cynical again but I think I’m right on this one.

Except that it is a different and quite possibly unique expression of riesling. Saying “if you like Azinger Steinertl so much there’s no reason to buy CSH which is more expensive” is to my mind much like saying “if you like M. Ollivier Briords so much there’s no reason to buy Alzinger Steinertl because it’s more expensive.”

They are different wines and I find the expression that is Clos Ste Hune unbelievably beautiful when you hit it just right. That said, I wouldn’t want a cellar full of nothing but CSH (which is good because I don’t). When young it can be good but not otherwordly enough to justify the price. Weaker vintages are … weaker but not less expensive.

So IMO while it’s not a wrong decision to buy equally good but less expensive wines made from riesling it’s also not a wrong decision to splurge on an occasional bottle of CSH. 25 years from now you’ll probably be glad you did.

Unless of course it turns out to have been affected by premox. Then you’re screwed.

[Carl_Steefel]

@Doug Schulman

Thanks for all of the input. I have had '07 G MAX and it was otherworldly, as was '07 Abtserde (which I think was on a very similar level and is much more easily obtained for much less money). As for the Clos St Hune, I have been told that it needs about 25 years to really show why it is so special. That is why I am hesitant to buy a young bottle and open it. Posner’s recent offer was what spurred this thread. I was all set to buy 2 bottles, one for soon and one for much later, and then I thought “I don’t know where this wine has been for the past several years. I’m sure it’s fine now, but I don’t want to buy a back vintage to lay down for so long unless I am sure of its provenance.” (Please don’t take that as anything negative about the offer or his wonderful business; it isn’t intended that way and I am sure the wine is in great shape now for consumption.) Then I started wondering if it was worth trying at all at this young age (the offer was for 2002). I probably should have jumped on it, but I was interested to see some people’s opinions. I agree that the best of something is worth a premium, but I also have trouble shelling out over $100 for a dry Riesling when I can get such ridiculously good ones for well under $100 from Germany and Austria. They are, of course, different from Alsace, but if they offer as much or more pleasure, I don’t know how much I care that they are different. Anyway, I will probably try it for curiosity’s sake the next time I see a decent vintage for a good price and I’m not saving for a rather costly trip. Other opinions or further discussion would, of course, interest me greatly.

I think the 2008 Keller G-Max was somewhere around $250 or more. It would be a tougher decision of the CSH against one of Keller’s Grosses Gewachs for just under $100, but then there would also be a decision of the CSH versus say the Frederich Emile for much less money (less than the Keller GGs).

Not sure about the 25 year requirement or where (or who) that came from. The 1997 was very impressive…

[Peter_Chiu]

@Eric Ifune

Clos Ste Hune really needs age to show it’s true worth. At 10-15 years, Frederic Emile can be as flattering, but with 20-30+ years it becomes sublime.

Yes - I agree with Eric.

I will never forget my experiene with mutiple bottles of CSHune from vintage 1983, 1986 and 1988 when noone was buying them in Quebec, Canada. I waited to buy on discount and they were less than CD $30. Then started from vintage 1989…the price went through the roof and I stopped and switched to F-Emile which were excellent.

Is it worth the extra price ?

Yes…definitely.

[David_Bu3ker]

@Keith Levenberg

2. The number of people who worship at the CSH altar seems to be greater than the number of people who have drank much 25+ year-old CSH, but it still strikes me for the most part that they are people who do not drink much Austrian or German wine. Let’s put it this way, show me one of those mega-cellars with a big trove of Clos Ste. Hune and you’re more likely to also find a big trove of Leflaive or Krug in it than a big trove of Alzinger or Pichler. Oh gosh, there I go again being cynical again but I think I’m right on this one.

I haven’t had much old CSH (20 year old is as far as I have gone), but I’ve had it & it’s delicious & unique.

I also think if you examine the contents of my wine cellar you will find just a little bit of German and Austrian wine. I wish I had even mroe Hune, but I came to it late.

[salilb]

@David M. Bueker

I haven’t had much old CSH (20 year old is as far as I have gone), but I’ve had it & it’s delicious & unique.

I also think if you examine the contents of my wine cellar you will find just a little bit of German and Austrian wine. I wish I had even mroe Hune, but I came to it late.

Well, if you’re finding forgotten bottles of 2001 Hirtzbergers in the cellar, you don’t have much to worry about.

[Jay_Miller]

@salilb

@David M. Bueker

I haven’t had much old CSH (20 year old is as far as I have gone), but I’ve had it & it’s delicious & unique.

I also think if you examine the contents of my wine cellar you will find just a little bit of German and Austrian wine. I wish I had even mroe Hune, but I came to it late.

Well, if you’re finding forgotten bottles of 2001 Hirtzbergers in the cellar, you don’t have much to worry about.

2001 Singerreidl isn’t ready to drink either.

[David_Bu3ker]

@Jay Miller

@salilb

@David M. Bueker

I haven’t had much old CSH (20 year old is as far as I have gone), but I’ve had it & it’s delicious & unique.

I also think if you examine the contents of my wine cellar you will find just a little bit of German and Austrian wine. I wish I had even mroe Hune, but I came to it late.

Well, if you’re finding forgotten bottles of 2001 Hirtzbergers in the cellar, you don’t have much to worry about.

2001 Singerreidl isn’t ready to drink either.

Well 2001 Honivogl Gruner Veltliner was fantastic the other week.

[Rico_Thompson]

Love Clos St Hune, for my wine budget no longer worth the going rate.

David, like you, I’ve had some real issues with the '96…as in Premox

[Carl_Steefel]

@Rico Thompson

Love Clos St Hune, for my wine budget no longer worth the going rate.

David, like you, I’ve had some real issues with the '96…as in Premox

This would summarize my view I guess. I thought the '97 we had was beautiful, but still I would not spend over $100 for this wine.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Methinks whenever you’re talking about trophy wines the question leading this thread, “worth it”, is always very complicated to respond to.

I generally avoid trophy wines, as I think they are often poor values and are fertile for disappointments…for many reasons. But, I’ve bought Clos Ste Hune, mainly from ‘90s’ vintages, though I haven’t drunk many. (And, that '97 was problematic.).

I love Alsace and its wines and, particularly, its rieslings and pinot blancs. Trimbach has had a very effective, intense and prolonged marketing effort, particularly in the US. They make really good wines that have, in the recent, hotter/sweeter epoch, been more useful at the table than most. I have lots of Trimbach (and Boxler and Barmes-Buecher). But, it is important to keep in mind that both the Clos Ste. Hune and CFE are brands. As such, the domaine is constrained to strive to make the same type of wine consistently to keep up the image and the perceived quality (which is high.) No one even really knows what the vineyard for CSH is or where it all comes from (though some have good guesses; there is no such vineyard in Hunawihr; I’ve tried to find it.) Likewise, the CFE is a blend of two grand cru vineyards. Some winemakers in Alsace denigrate Trimbach by claiming that the only way it can produce wines in that style consistently is by harvesting early, high yields and young vines. It makes some sense that that would be the case, though even the Trimbachs have had to make lots of VT and SGN examples of those vineyards in recent years.

Is it “worth it”? I guess it depends on what one is willing to pay for. It will almost always be pleasing and satisfying wine, particularly with some age and the right setting (had a wonderful '96 CSH on NY eve into 2009…in Maine with lobsters and good friends.) There is a certain value, even to cynical me, to experiencing what many/most consider the top of the heap. But, “value” is so individual…and, I’m very much into Lew Dawson’s criteria: “a well-informed buyer can get 98% or 99% of the quality for 50% of the price.” This is where “I reside”, too. I get just as much pleasure from an aged Boxler grand cru from Brand or Sommerberg…or a Barmes riesling Steingrubler or Hengst…for a fraction of the price (and, pretty much the same pleasure from a CFE, too.) So, I’d guess I’d answer by opining that …it can be “worth it”…on occasion. But, the premium provides very fertile ground for disappointment, too…as does any premium/trophy label on the bottle. As long as one understands that (and I recognize it with CSH and buy it, though I don’t ever buy other trophies, particularly in Burgundy). It is important, though, to understand what Lew points out…and I think he might be understating the numbers, too…ie, one could get the same gratification at less than half the price as CSH.

IMO, FWIW

[PaulM]

I’d join the try the CSH, buy the Freddie brigade. The CSH is amazing and a wine I always have an eye out for, but it’s hard to spend north of $150 (and, showing my Waughian bias, even harder on even the best whites).

[David_Bu3ker]

Stuart,

Clos Ste Hune is part of Rosacker. Is it more of a “brand” name (though note that Trimabch refuses to use the Alsatian Grand Cru system - Hune could be labeled Rosacker Grand Cru) , perhaps so, but it’s still all Rosacker.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Though that’s the common wisdom, David, no one is sure of that. No one is sure that it comes exclusively from the Rosacker in Hunawihr. Certainly, without labeling it as Rosacker, there is no legal requirement that it come exclusively from Rosacker.

The main reason that Trimbach “refuses” to use the grand cru “system” [and I can hardly blame them] is that its brands, Clos Ste Hune, Cuvee Frederic Emile, Seigneurs Ribeaupierre, etc. predate the system, and, as brands, are more valuable on a label than any grand cru name. They earned the benefits of these brands.