Clos St Hune: worth it?

WINE TALK
41

I’m not sure what point you are making - maybe I should buy the Reserve (I haven’t in a long time but it’s supposed to be quite good and also age-worthy)? Certainly CFE is cheap compared to CSH, and CFE is among the deepest verticals in my cellar. But while Frederic Emile is great and fits in that category of “wines under $50 that transform with age,” it’s not a huge bargain on an absolute scale (say, compared to some Loire or German whites).

42

Stuart…I am surprise that you were not into CSHune until 1990s.

In the early 1980s the difference between CSH and CFE was about 20% and now it is around 1 CSH for 4 CFE in Quebec, Canada.

43

I agree. It would not make sense to pay the extra money for CSH and then drink it young. With age, the few times I have had CSH they have been spectacular, probably among the best rieslings I have had. But, I own tons of riesling and one bottle of CSH.

44

I could continue to buy CSHune after the increase in price but they were ( and are ) being offerred on allocation : one or two bottles per customer at first come first seve base on the scheduled release date here by SAQ.

45

I am not sure what point I was making–just some random observations. Our tasting was the Reserve versus the CSH, but they are so different that it is hard to compare them (perhaps this is obvious). The more logical comparison would be the Frederich and the CSH, where the Frederich to me looks dramatically cheaper. And cheaper now then the Kellers that were mentioned earlier, which have crept up in price (and overshot the CSH in fact in the case of the G-Max).

As to comparing with the Loire, that is another story. The best deals in town are there (Huet Haut Lieu Sec for $23??)…

46

Did you read the Tom Stevenson article on Trimbac in WoFW a while back? He even had the plot outlined on an overhead view.

I do agree that the names are more valuable than having a grand cru label on the wines, but that really speaks to the weakness of the Alsatian Grand Cru classifications.

47

Sorry, perhaps I just don’t get your point. Are you saying that it can come from elsewhere as opposed to what they state in their website. That is “This exceptional wine is a product of the terroir in the “Rosacker” vineyard, located in the village of Hunawihr. This parcel of land, which stretches over 1.67 hectares, has been in the Trimbach family for more than 200 years.”

48

Good to know. These days I’m trying desperately to hold onto my entirely inadequate stash of gruner until age 15.

49

15? Hmm…road trip to Connecticut?

50

Yes…I read it. David Schildknecht kindly sent me a copy as a result of a similar thread on Squires some time ago. That answered where the “plot” in the Rosacker was/is. But, as the law doesn’t require CSH to be exclusively from those vines in the Rosacker, it didn’t answer the question of what’s in the Clos Ste. Hune bottle. (I’m not sure there ever even was a walled “Clos Ste Hune”, though the town is named after her. ) I don’t mean to sound skeptical here (though I don’t generally mind sounding skeptical), but…it is an amusing issue to me. And, I’ve asked when visiting the Trimbach estate and never gotten an answer that was helpful. (One time, with a friend, in 2004, he insisted, after visiting and questioning them, that we go to Hunawihr. Our contacts with the people there were hilarious; he didn’t speak any French; they spoke Alsatian or German, so he tried that. Bottom line: they told him that there was no such thing as the “Clos Ste. Hune”, that it was a commercial brand name and that people were frequently bothering them to locate this “vineyard”. It was all funny, as, by then, I was convinced that it was a disparate group of plots; my friend was insistent.) Some detractors in Alsace posit that the wine includes other vineyards’ grapes.

I probably shouldn’t get into this, as I like the Trimbach wines very much , and they’ve been very hospitable to me. But, their style of wine puts pressure on the other winemakers and estates to make similar wines that are as useful at the table, ie, dry. The other estates are bemused and dumbfounded, as they all seem to believe that the only way to make such wines is cutting corners: high yields, early harvesting, keeping the vines young , etc. They profess that they have no interest and look down on such contrived wines. The problem, they acknowledge, is it makes them seem like whiners and inept , rather than credible. I’ve had some amusing conversations with some of them, as even they find this paradoxical: the corner cutter setting the ideal. It is pretty fun to listen to them rant about this. (And, frankly, they look down on me for liking the wines so much, sometimes ridiculing me about it.)

51

Yes…it “can” legally come from elsewhere, too…or from parcels within the Rosacker not owned by the Trimbachs. Whether it ever does…I have no idea, though I’ve tried to find out during visits. At any rate, the Trimbachs own less than 7% of the Rosacker…in a plot that is not set off in any way or even identifiable. I have no doubt that they use their holdings, though. The only question is whether, every year, it is exclusively made from those holdings, assuming the same plot has been the “holding”.

Bottom line is that brands like the CFE/CSH, etc. are not regulated in any way, unlike the AOC.

52

I haven’t bought Clos Ste. Hune because of the tariff (except for a silly deal on a single bottle of '89 VT Hors Choix), but a bottle of the '73 that my wife & I shared at a restaurant in Seattle a few years ago was one of the great bottles of wine I have ever experienced.

I was lucky enough to be able to have some of that bottle of Gmax thanks to Mike’s incredible generosity. The Gmax is spectacular, but it is an entirely different animal than the Trimbach CFE/CSH. I’m personally voting for CFE, Gmax & Hirtzberger Singerreidl all in my cellar together (along w/ many others…)!

53

Stuart,

Despite your comments about liking the Trimbachs, you clearly have an axe to grind on this issue. What is it? You strongly imply all sorts of shenanigans. If I were Jean or Pierre Trimbach I would not give you a straight answer either.

54

And it’s always been interesting that nobody else’s Rosacker is remotely comparable. I think you’ve got it right that these wines are very much about whatever Trimbach “does” to them.

55

And that’s totally reasonable to a point, but eventually hierarchy has to enter into the equation. Musigny is a different expression from Les Charmes, but if Les Charmes cost more than Musigny I doubt I’d ever buy it.

56

I get the argument that the wine might need 25+ years to show why it’s worthwhile, although the following must be noted:

  1. If that’s the case, that would make CSH literally unique among rieslings, dry or otherwise. I’m not aware of a single other example that requires that much time, as opposed to just benefitting from it. The overwhelming majority are marvelously impressive on release, even! That seems to me to be a point in their favor – a wine with a 25-year black-hole period seems to me less valuable than one you can drink at nearly any point in your and their lives.
  2. The number of people who worship at the CSH altar seems to be greater than the number of people who have drank much 25+ year-old CSH, but it still strikes me for the most part that they are people who do not drink much Austrian or German wine. Let’s put it this way, show me one of those mega-cellars with a big trove of Clos Ste. Hune and you’re more likely to also find a big trove of Leflaive or Krug in it than a big trove of Alzinger or Pichler. Oh gosh, there I go again being cynical again but I think I’m right on this one.

Um, I have quite a bit of Trimbach going back to the mid-80s including Clos Ste Hune and Frederic Emile as well as Prager Achlieten back to the early 90’s and Brundylmayer to the mid-80’s. Pichler starting with 1997. I’ve always loved riesling, bought lots of Germans and Alsace. Stuart Pigott first started writing about the superlative Austrian rieslings in the early 90’s and that’s what got me started on them. I also have a bit of Krug and Leflaive as well, but not nearly as much as I do of Austrians.

57

Jean Trimbach once told me where the Clos Ste Hune was located. It’s in the middle of the Rosacker but it’s outlines are not marked at all. I think I found it.

58

Stuart, you keep posting this nonsense, which you’ve posted for decades, across oh-so-many fora. And it’s nonsense. Actually, it’s other things, but as long as the Trimbachs don’t want to escalate the issue I’m fine with calling it nonsense. But you should really know better.

I and so many others have been in the Clos Ste-Hune. It’s not walled, no (nor are many Alsatian “Clos”). But we’ve walked the boundaries. The vineyard-owning locals in Hunawihr, if you don’t offend them with ridiculous questions in odd languages, will help show it to you. As will the Trimbachs. As will their employees. I could take you out into the Rosacker any day – turn right at the tree, look for the bricks in the ground – and show it to you. As could others. But I’m afraid you don’t actually want to be corrected on this point.

I know where you hear the story that it doesn’t exist. That person was wrong, was always wrong, and there were no little personal enmity that led to this falsehood that you keep repeating.

CSH isn’t a brand, it’s a site. CFE is a brand, in the sense that the same-every-vintage vineyards that can go into it run across the border of two grand cru vineyards, and thus the wine can’t name either of them (nor should it).

As for the greater question of whether CSH is “worth it”…obviously that depends on one’s finances and desire to experience it. And yes, to Eric’s point, it – and very little less the CFE – does require age, and much of it, to show its potential. If someone wants to call that a negative, that’s their prerogative. It seems dumb to me, but I suppose one can preference early-drinking wines from any grape or appellation if they wish. That said, if you haven’t had Clos Ste-Hune with significant age, from multiple great vintages, then you really can’t say much about the quality that would lead you to start considering the value equation that answers the original question.

I think it’s one of the great expressions of riesling in the world, but I stopped buying it at a certain price point. Others will quit – or not start – at a different point. My price points for the great German, Austrian, and other rieslings that would “compete” for riesling preeminence have been different. I enjoy comparing them, I really enjoy drinking them, but see little purpose in ranking them as if one must drive the other from my cellar.

59

Thor Trimbach,

I knew you’d get “here” eventually. Every board needs a self-annointed sage. And, like flies to a trout (or worse), this thread has lured you to post WB. You have indeed arrived. Touting Trimbach (which needs no touting; they need no help, as their wines speak for themselves) took you here. What a surprise!! [dance-clap.gif]

Clos Ste. Hune is a brand, despite what you say. And, like most brands, marketing plays a big role. The Trimbach holdings in the Rosacker can be walked, I’m sure. (But only if you don’t ask “ridiculous questions” like “where is it”? or 'do all of the grapes in the CSH come from this plot?") Your curiousity can be satisfied enough to become the web’s biggest fan…and put others down who ask pertinent questions. But, what does that prove? Nothing.

I come to almost every thread to learn, not to teach. (And, I admit, as David suggested that I seem to have an ax to grind. I don’t. I just like to understand what I’m interested enough in to want to understand; on almost every subject I’m interested in.) I add what I can, and I look for answers. That David and you like to put me down and say things like…trust me, I know…or…if you’d only ask nicely…adds zero to my knowledge. It just makes me more curious.

If you know where I heard “the story”…please tell me. I honestly have no idea who/what you’re talking about. Many people in Alsace in the wine trade raise questions about the Trimbach wines and , particularly this one. I know because I have visited, bought it there and responded to the ridicule…and am happy to have bought and visited several times. I just do like to have answers to some questions. Do you have any? Does David? If so, I haven’t heard any over the “decades” you’ve dismissed any such questions as irrelevant, stupid, impertinent, impolite, etc.

Obviously, people are interested in the CSH and what it is and what it is from and how the Trimbachs make such great dry wines in an era when pretty much no one else is …or can, naturally. Please don’t put people down for asking the questions that you , obviously, don’t have the curiosity or want to take the risk to your “reputation” to ask. I don’t think the answer is scandalous or all that complicated. But, I am certain that neither you nor David have ever added anything to the query-- except dismissing those who dare to ask…because they are curious.

You seem to think you’ve got it all “figured out”…how to ask without offending; how to get the Trimbach employees to show you where it is (I wonder why they’d take someone like you there…did you ever wonder why you were “chosen” to get this treatment. [worship.gif] [worship.gif]

Please tell everyone "where the story that it doesn’t exist. Since I’ve never heard it or said it…I’d be curious who you’re talking about. Very serious question. What I’ve said/heard (from many there; I have no idea who that one person is) is that there is no "Clos Ste. Hune (and there isn’t and never has been one) as a vineyard in the sense that other Clos wines are specific vineyards, and, that because of the Trimbachs’ understandable decision to not follow the AOC for any of their wines, there is no clear answer of what goes into the CSH brand (and there isn’t; I’ve never heard you or any other [worship.gif] get an answer; and, that there is no clear answer about how the Trimbachs make such a great dry wine from the Rosacker (and with the CFE) when the other Rosackers I’ve had and most other “grand cru” rieslings are not dry in the recent years. (And, I don’t consider it a negative that the Trimbachs do that; I’m just interested in knowing how ). And, maybe to confirm that asking such questions doesn’t mean I am criticizing or condemning the Trimbachs or their wines…

…FWIWI just checked my cellear inventory. I currently own 109 bottles of Trimbach wines; 24 of which are CSH. And, apparently I consumed 34 bottles of Trimbach over the 15 years I’ve had such an inventory program. I think that qualifies me as a fan, albeit a curious fan…and entitled to ask some questions.



If you’ve got answers to these three questions…rather than suppositions or patronizing comments to people like me who ask…I’m all ears. [popcorn.gif] If not… [bye.gif]

60

Sure, Stuart, I’d be happy to answer your questions.

  1. Lacking a map of my own to show you, I refer you to Tom Stevenson’s previously-referenced map. I suppose it’s possible that he, too, is a shill and lying in order to further Trimbach’s marketing aims. They’d undoubtedly do better with him than with me. Since Trimbach’s non-négociant wines are, according to the Trimbachs (no doubt unreliable sources), selling poorly in the States, undoubtedly their multi-decade marketing plan involving false knowledge funneled through me can now be called a failure. Though frankly, I don’t think much of the marketing plan if that’s the whole of it.

But if you need third-party confirmation, you may ask residents of Hunawihr and other surrounding villages who own plots in the Rosacker. Very little research will be required to find out who they are, and I don’t want to unduly influence your research by naming the ones that are no doubt members of the same conspiracy. You could also walk up to people harvesting in the Rosacker where you have been shown that the Clos Ste-Hune is and ask them whose grapes they’re picking, and where they’ll stop. I, personally, found this effective, but it’s true that I didn’t ask them in Alsatian or German.

  1. You most likely heard the story from the late, lamented François Barmès, who was the one who told it to me in almost exactly the same form you’ve been writing it here and on so many fora for so long. That you’ve heard it elsewhere is unquestionably true, but of the various levels of authority his voice carried the most weight. And given your long relationship with that domaine, it’s only natural that you would have heard it there first. If he had proof, he never shared it with me, but it’s also true that I didn’t ask; I took it in the same way I took his enthusiasm for biodynamics and settled for an appreciation of his wines without having to agree with him on other points.

I couldn’t say why you have been so singularly unlucky in ferreting out the truth. Perhaps you should try a different approach? I started with “could I see the Clos Ste-Hune?” and that seemed to work, though the hours blindfolded in the back of a windowless van may have disoriented me.

  1. They produce dry wines from sites that mostly produce dry wines in others’ hands as well. Geisberg & Osterberg aren’t Brand, Rosacker isn’t Altenbourg. This isn’t voodoo. They choose harvest dates that balance ripeness and the ability to ferment dry; if one wishes to complain that they aim for a house style rather than letting the vineyard do what it wants, it’s a fair criticism and probably the most effective one (aside from whether or not one likes their wines, which of course some don’t). When it’s an issue in the other (négociant and Réserve) wines, they pick some grapes early for their elevated acidity; in other years they don’t have to. All that said, Trimbach’s wines are getting riper and sweeter, as they have no magical powers over the climate. When they continue – as they sometimes do – to insist that the Trimbach style is dry, I have to roll my eyes a bit, because the percentage of dry wines in their portfolio is rather lower than it used to be.

Finally, it seems to me that if you’re going to traipse across the internet accusing a winery of centuries of conspiracy to eventually commit appellation fraud (because that’s what you’re doing), and that it’s ongoing and unpunished despite the – entirely correct – assessment that the Trimbachs are not universally beloved in the region, you should be able to offer a little more than whispers and innuendo.