Explain the double standard for me please

Russell_Faulkner · December 15, 2016, 8:41am

Indian and Thai are the mainstays for me. Given most restaurants here use terrible quality meat and good veg (and great fruit) it’s no hardship.

Alain_M · December 15, 2016, 10:48am

I have but I cannot feel satisfied if I’m not having any animal protein. The food is tasty but it does not hit the right spot for me.

Alain

Jason_T · December 15, 2016, 11:23am

Greg Pierce:

First, few folks who eat meat do so exclusively. Instead, you have a meat, and several side dishes that either are vegetarian, or can be adapted to be vegetarian with little loss of flavor. Accordingly, it is easy for a meat eating person to adapt a meal to accommodate any vegetarian/vegan guests. Vegetarians/Vegans, on the other hand, do not routinely prepare meat containing dishes of any kind. Accordingly, it is more difficult for them to try to add a meat containing dish for guests.

Second, in light of the fact that meat eaters also routinely cook/eat vegetarian/vegan dishes, they typically have the skills/recipes to cook delicious vegetarian/vegan dishes in addition to the skills/recipes necessary to cook delicious meat dishes. Folks who never cook meat may well lack skills/recipes to make a good meat dish. Accordingly, they may well be doing you a favor by not trying to cook meat for you.

This.

Jason_T · December 15, 2016, 11:26am

The problem is that most people are mediocre to terrible cooks, but meat eaters probably have more margin for error in utilizing their arsenal - and that covers up for a lot of mistakes.

Joe_B · December 15, 2016, 12:56pm

Sarah Kirschbaum:

alan weinberg:

salad just tells my stomach that real food is coming. I couldn’t survive one vegan meal.

Don’t talk like an idiot, Dr. Weinberg. If I made you a dinner of arugula salad with heirloom tomatoes and pickled onions, followed by braised endive with toasted hazelnuts, roasted herbed potatoes, spinach sauteed with garlic and red pepper flakes, toast points topped with sauteed morels, shallots and herbs, wood fired pizza with truffled corn and seared scallions, homemade pasta with tomatoes, olives and basil, and risotto topped with white truffles, you’d survive just fine, thank you very much. And the wine pairing options would be strong. Would it be better with egg, cream, cheese and duck fat? Yes, it would. Would it be delicious without? Abso-f*cking-lutely.

I’ll say again: there is no reason or excuse for food that doesn’t taste good, or food that can’t satisfy, no matter what the restrictions.

What is the prep time on this meal?

Bruce_Leiser_owitz · December 15, 2016, 1:19pm

This is just now occurring to you?

As a host, I usually don’t have a problem figuring out a menu that will work for everyone. This is especially true if you accept the notion that not everyone
has to eat every dish. If I can make/serve a variety of dishes, then usually everyone can find enough food to be happy.

The only time it’s an issue is if you have someone who is militantly opposed to a category of food such that not only do they not want to eat it, but they’re upset
if it shows up on the table for anyone else to eat. So if someone is a militant vegan who is going to deliver an angry lecture at anyone who eats meat, then that’s
not going to work. Luckily, none of my food/wine friends acts like that.

Bruce

Brian_Tuite · December 15, 2016, 1:52pm

BBQ, vegetables all smashed together formed into a disc and passed off as a hamburger.

I have another question, if vegetarians are put off by meat why is it that they try to make stuff that looks like meat. Veggie burgers, Hot dogs, Tofurkey?

Brian_Tuite · December 15, 2016, 2:11pm

Neither do I. I have no problem at all cooking enough acceptable food for non-meat eating guests. Somehow people are equating my question with the idea that I don’t like vegetables or vegetarian meals. I cook them all the time. I make a vegetarian chili that will knock your socks off.

The example I gave for this thread is BBQ. Veggie burgers is not real grilling, hot dogs may be gross but they are what they are. Try to make them out of something else and it is something else shaped like a hot dog or hamburger that tastes like neither. How hard is it to toss a couple burger patties on the grill next to the hockey pucks? You can isolate them to the back corner of the grill like they are radioactive. I won’t be offended. Just don’t invite me over for burgers unless you are actually cooking burgers.

Joe_B · December 15, 2016, 2:20pm

Vegans coming to my house can pretty much have a baked potato. My mashed potato has sour cream and butter in it. Maybe they even would get some corn or peas but they can always eat whatever main dish is served which is about 95-100% meat based.

Michae1_P0wers · December 15, 2016, 2:37pm

I kind of doubt the sincerity of your questions at this point and think you’re just relishing playing this rather stereotypical role, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, the (extremely obvious) answer is that, as mentioned, vegetarians aren’t “put off” by the taste and experience of meat, but rather by the killing of animals to achieve those ends and/or the effect of commercial meat farming* to obtain said meat. I know vegetarians who, after a long time without meat, find the texture of eating meat or the handling of raw meat to be a really disgusting thought. But that isn’t why they made the choice initially, it was for ethical reasons (or I expect this to be the case) and the extremity of their aversion came later. Perhaps those people were also more inclined to vegetarianism because meat held less lure for them. In any case, the “fake meat” serves two purposes. First, it may provide some of the pleasure that the real item would, at least once one has foregone the real thing for long enough. Second, and I suspect this is the main purpose, it allows vegetarians to bring a simple-to-prepare item to gatherings where others will be eating meat. Most vegetarians I know aren’t cooking store-bought veggie burgers or hot dogs at home (though I’ve had very good homemade veggie “patties” in the past).

A really interesting perspective on this issue can be found by watching the episode of Netflix’s “Chef’s Table: France” featuring Arpege. It makes you rethink the prominence of meat and what would be possible if it wasn’t assumed that meat is focus of all cuisine.

*I appreciate that some people can eat more ethical meat by choosing to pay for that privilege, but even in doing so there is often a feeling that one is contributing to the extreme luxury end of what is still a very harmful enterprise overall. If the only meat being raised were very ethical meat then perhaps the overall ecological effect of meat wouldn’t be so detrimental, but overall I think we know that it is. And again, I say this although I eat meat.

Jay_Miller · December 15, 2016, 2:47pm

For most vegetarians they are not put off by the appearance of meat but have made a conscious decision not to participate in the killing of animals for food. I have a lot of respect for that position.

Even after reading some material on it I still don’t really understand veganism but accept that some people feel that way and would try to accommodate any guests for whom it is a problem just as I try to have non-shellfish, non-pork if I had kosher guests. Unfortunately as mentioned my vegan cooking skills are pretty much nonexistent.

Brian_Tuite · December 15, 2016, 3:00pm

Michae1 P0wers:

Brian Tuite:

Russell Faulkner:

What veggie concoction?

You mean vegetables, rice, pasta? Or something specific that vegetarians serve you.

BBQ, vegetables all smashed together formed into a disc and passed off as a hamburger.

I have another question, if vegetarians are put off by meat why is it that they try to make stuff that looks like meat. Veggie burgers, Hot dogs, Tofurkey?

I kind of doubt the sincerity of your questions at this point and think you’re just relishing playing this rather stereotypical role, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, the (extremely obvious) answer is that, as mentioned, vegetarians aren’t “put off” by the taste and experience of meat, but rather by the killing of animals to achieve those ends and/or the effect of commercial meat farming* to obtain said meat. I know vegetarians who, after a long time without meat, find the texture of eating meat or the handling of raw meat to be a really disgusting thought. But that isn’t why they made the choice initially, it was for ethical reasons (or I expect this to be the case) and the extremity of their aversion came later. Perhaps those people were also more inclined to vegetarianism because meat held less lure for them. In any case, the “fake meat” serves two purposes. First, it may provide some of the pleasure that the real item would, at least once one has foregone the real thing for long enough. Second, and I suspect this is the main purpose, it allows vegetarians to bring a simple-to-prepare item to gatherings where others will be eating meat. Most vegetarians I know aren’t cooking store-bought veggie burgers or hot dogs at home (though I’ve had very good homemade veggie “patties” in the past).

A really interesting perspective on this issue can be found by watching the episode of Netflix’s “Chef’s Table: France” featuring Arpege. It makes you rethink the prominence of meat and what would be possible if it wasn’t assumed that meat is focus of all cuisine.

*I appreciate that some people can eat more ethical meat by choosing to pay for that privilege, but even in doing so there is often a feeling that one is contributing to the extreme luxury end of what is still a very harmful enterprise overall. If the only meat being raised were very ethical meat then perhaps the overall ecological effect of meat wouldn’t be so detrimental, but overall I think we know that it is. And again, I say this although I eat meat.

Once again, I never asked why vegetarians eat what they eat. I truly am being sincere with my questions. In a PC world where nobody can ask anything without being sized up or judged I am one who doesn’t really care if someone sizes me up as long as they get it right. I guess that allows me to ask questions like this without feeling like I am stirring a pot. Just asking questions and for the most part getting straightforward answers which I am grateful for.

Russell_Faulkner · December 15, 2016, 3:20pm

I don’t eat any ‘meat substitutes’ but the rather obvious reason why veggie burgers and ‘sausages’ are the same shape is so they can fit in the bun. But of course beef burgers and dogs are hardly natural meat products. They are the shape they are because of convenience, so it follows that a non meat version wouldn’t alter.

As for the tofu turkey. Well I don’t have much to say. Every unhealthy looking non meat eater I eat eats that sort of stuff. I don’t.

Jay, I find industrial dairy and egg farming to be unpalatable, that’s why I don’t eat from them.

Sarah_Kirschbaum · December 15, 2016, 3:37pm

Joe B:

Sarah Kirschbaum:

alan weinberg:

salad just tells my stomach that real food is coming. I couldn’t survive one vegan meal.

Don’t talk like an idiot, Dr. Weinberg. If I made you a dinner of arugula salad with heirloom tomatoes and pickled onions, followed by braised endive with toasted hazelnuts, roasted herbed potatoes, spinach sauteed with garlic and red pepper flakes, toast points topped with sauteed morels, shallots and herbs, wood fired pizza with truffled corn and seared scallions, homemade pasta with tomatoes, olives and basil, and risotto topped with white truffles, you’d survive just fine, thank you very much. And the wine pairing options would be strong. Would it be better with egg, cream, cheese and duck fat? Yes, it would. Would it be delicious without? Abso-f*cking-lutely.

I’ll say again: there is no reason or excuse for food that doesn’t taste good, or food that can’t satisfy, no matter what the restrictions.

What is the prep time on this meal?

Other than the risotto, and the time to get the pizza oven to temp, not much. The pizza dough we make is a slow ferment over 5 days, but that’s by preference, and there are recipes that take much less time. The remainder of the meal can be done with about an hour active prep. I wouldn’t make this meal for just the two of us, but it would it be a fairly easy dinner party menu.

Brian_Tuite · December 15, 2016, 3:51pm

But I’m low carb and gluten free.

Elliot_Steele · December 15, 2016, 3:53pm

todd_waldmann · December 15, 2016, 6:20pm

Dale Bowers:

I think what Brain was saying (and it has happened to me too) is when you’re invited to dinner or a gathering and get no fair warning of what to expect. Case in point, when we invite guests for dinner, I always ask if those invited have any special requirements, allergies, foods they don’t like etc. Recently we were invited to a dinner party of 4 couples. No advance warning or expectation. Not only were the hosts vegetarians, but also strict vegan, AND they don’t cook with anything that has gluten. Let that sink in for a minute. So everything from the appetizers before dinner to the entire dinner to dessert, had no wheat, no dairy, no butter, no nothing. I am far from a picky eater, but everything was terrible without even a hint of flavor or texture. Honestly, in a situation such as that where your eating habits have so many restrictions, I believe it behooves you to at least inform you quests in advance.

The only possible explanation for not informing guests that they are to be dining at a vegan, gluten-free household is that the hosts are hopelessly self-absorbed. Were they as unappetizing as their food?

alan_weinberg · December 15, 2016, 9:15pm

Sarah Kirschbaum:

alan weinberg:

salad just tells my stomach that real food is coming. I couldn’t survive one vegan meal.

Don’t talk like an idiot, Dr. Weinberg. If I made you a dinner of arugula salad with heirloom tomatoes and pickled onions, followed by braised endive with toasted hazelnuts, roasted herbed potatoes, spinach sauteed with garlic and red pepper flakes, toast points topped with sauteed morels, shallots and herbs, wood fired pizza with truffled corn and seared scallions, homemade pasta with tomatoes, olives and basil, and risotto topped with white truffles, you’d survive just fine, thank you very much. And the wine pairing options would be strong. Would it be better with egg, cream, cheese and duck fat? Yes, it would. Would it be delicious without? Abso-f*cking-lutely.

I’ll say again: there is no reason or excuse for food that doesn’t taste good, or food that can’t satisfy, no matter what the restrictions.

you are likely right . . . and my chance of finding a meal like that is equivalent to PowerBall odds! Your partner is lucky.

Larry_P · December 16, 2016, 12:13am

As a vegetarian who has never gone hungry at Brian’s house, I guess there’s some stirring of the pot here. There’s no double-standard here. If a vegan insisted you didn’t serve anybody meat at your house, then you’d have a point. This is a case where a little civility goes a long way.

I think it’s not at all unusual to have vegetarians or vegans at a party. It’s a common courtesy to make sure they have something to eat. Wine-related meals, it seems are the least veg friendly vestige left in western society. I guess that’s because winos fancy themselves serious foodies.
As a vegetarian, I wouldn’t invite people over for a bbq and serve fake meats. Ever. I think it’s an embarrassment that vegetarians eat this stuff. …but I did have a host ask me to prep some black bean burgers for their bbq since they know there would be many vegetarians there. Here’s an example of civility. The biggest problem was, the carnivores liked them so much, there wasn’t enough for all the vegetarians.
If a vegan showed up at one of my pizza parties, I’d make a killer vegan pizza for him or her, and with zero whining about it. Gluten free, well, they can eat salad.
The PITA comment is where I think you’re being disingenuous, Brian. At that point it seemed to me you didn’t start this thread for the purpose of discussion. I know meat eaters who only eat animals they hunt themselves, so ethical problems with meat are not even limited to vegetarians. But with vegetarians, it’s quite common too.

Sarah_Kirschbaum · December 16, 2016, 1:24am

alan weinberg:

Sarah Kirschbaum:

alan weinberg:

salad just tells my stomach that real food is coming. I couldn’t survive one vegan meal.

Don’t talk like an idiot, Dr. Weinberg. If I made you a dinner of arugula salad with heirloom tomatoes and pickled onions, followed by braised endive with toasted hazelnuts, roasted herbed potatoes, spinach sauteed with garlic and red pepper flakes, toast points topped with sauteed morels, shallots and herbs, wood fired pizza with truffled corn and seared scallions, homemade pasta with tomatoes, olives and basil, and risotto topped with white truffles, you’d survive just fine, thank you very much. And the wine pairing options would be strong. Would it be better with egg, cream, cheese and duck fat? Yes, it would. Would it be delicious without? Abso-f*cking-lutely.

I’ll say again: there is no reason or excuse for food that doesn’t taste good, or food that can’t satisfy, no matter what the restrictions.

you are likely right . . . and my chance of finding a meal like that is equivalent to PowerBall odds! Your partner is lucky.

My husband is a former chef, so I’d say we’re both pretty lucky.