Has this ISOB/AFWE thing gone a little too far?

[DougS]

@Nick Peay

So let me get this staight, Paul - Family Winemakers of Bullshit? World of Pinot Bullshit? Pinot Bullshit Days? Pinotbullshitfest?

Look, I know you don’t like Raj - fine. He hasn’t been on the IPOB tasting panel since he became a vintner himself. Yes, he had the idea, along with Jasmine Hirsch (a grower, in it for the long haul) to found an advocacy group, but the group is not All About Raj. We’re pursuing an ideal, and we’ve banded together to differentiate ourselves. You are fully entitled to judge that we have failed in that pursuit.

If “beauty is in the eye of the behoder,” well balance is on the palate of the imbiber, yours included.

Meanwhile, we (and I mean all of us, including Adam) have some wine to sell…haven’t you ever heard of marketing?

The problem is that this group has a mentality of “us vs. them”, and even worse, “wrong vs. right”. After all that’s been said about it, I’m really surprised you would act indignant. There’s absolutely no reason to malign the wines of other producers in order to sell your own. It does no good for the wine business as a whole, and especially not for the regions they come from. Robert Mondavi, unquestionably one of the great wine marketers of all time, must be turning over in his grave.

A much smarter wine person than me said this to me recently when I mentioned that a certain wine was food-friendly: “Most wine goes with food. You’re not really saying anything here.” He was right. IPOB is a lot of rhetoric with very little substance. There are so many far better ways to get their (your) wine sold if they wouldn’t act like they’re better than everyone else. I think it’s very reasonable to find their tactics offensive. But we’ve talked about all of this here before, so I know it probably won’t go anywhere.

[David_Bu3ker]

I find this whole thread, and the level of irritation at IPOB to be nothing sort of hilarious.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

@Adam Lee

It’s also possible that IPOB is bringing new folks into the CA drinking fold. If so, and I hope so, that would be fantastic.

Adam, nice to see you in the “IPOB/AFWE thing hasn’t gone too far” camp! FYI, the old guard can be a little ornery.

RT

[Adam_Lee]

Richard,

The United States is 52nd per capita in wine consumption. If we moved to 26th there would not be enough wine currently made in the world to support that. I’d be sold out, the Peays would be sold out, Raj and Dan Kosta would be sold out. It would be fantastic. We have a lot more to be gained working together than working separately.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Dennis_Kanagie]

@D@vid Bu3ker

@Dennis Kanagie

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

i just think if they toned down the volume

I agree with this in principal - it’s not the message, it’s the delivery. PETA is a good example. They’re message of better treatment for animals is great, and they’d have a HUGE following if they weren’t so radical. Sometimes going to the opposite extreme makes you just as unappealing or more.

You don’t see winemakers standing in front of the gates at Shafer or Harlan, screaming at consumers or trying to throw extracted Cabernet juice on them.

IPOB and PETA are pretty far apart in their radicalism. Poles apart in fact. IPOB is not at all radical. IPOB is ZAP (Zinfandel Advocates and Producers) with better marketing. The people who get all up in arms about IPOB are merely venting their own commercial or personal taste insecurities.

Again, somebody takes what I said and goes WAY too far. All I did was use PETA as an exaggerated example of going overboard to deliver a message that would otherwise be popular. As mentioned between the above quoted post and this one, if they didn’t take an “IPOB vs California Cult Wine” (us against them) stance and simply marketed themselves as an alternative they’d have less critics.

That’s all I’m saying. Nowhere did I say IPOB = PETA. Nowhere did I say IPOB = radical terrorists of wine. Please don’t add anything to my statements to make me sound like a radical.

Thank you.

[Brady_Daniels]

@Adam Lee

Richard,

The United States is 52nd per capita in wine consumption. If we moved to 26th there would not be enough wine currently made in the world to support that. I’d be sold out, the Peays would be sold out, Raj and Dan Kosta would be sold out. It would be fantastic. We have a lot more to be gained working together than working separately.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

Hi Adam,

Are you up really late or really early?

[Adam_Lee]

I am off on vacation this morning. So its kinda early where I am and not as early where I am going.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[David_Bu3ker]

@Dennis Kanagie

Again, somebody takes what I said and goes WAY too far. All I did was use PETA as an exaggerated example of going overboard to deliver a message that would otherwise be popular. As mentioned between the above quoted post and this one, if they didn’t take an “IPOB vs California Cult Wine” (us against them) stance and simply marketed themselves as an alternative they’d have less critics.

That’s all I’m saying. Nowhere did I say IPOB = PETA. Nowhere did I say IPOB = radical terrorists of wine. Please don’t add anything to my statements to make me sound like a radical.

Thank you.

Perhaps it’s the way you say it that causes this to happen “again.” You set up these comments, and did so again above. You bring the confrontational nature of the relationship into your posts.

[Brady_Daniels]

@Adam Lee

I am off on vacation this morning. So its kinda early where I am and not as early where I am going.

Cool. Enjoy your vacation! Don’t let WB threads ruin your mood.

[Jim_Brennan]

@Doug Schulman

The problem is that this group has a mentality of “us vs. them”, and even worse, “wrong vs. right”.

Ah yes, the cardinal sin, having a point of view.

[Adam_Lee]

@Brady Daniels

@Adam Lee

I am off on vacation this morning. So its kinda early where I am and not as early where I am going.

Cool. Enjoy your vacation! Don’t let WB threads ruin your mood.

No worries. I love this shit. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

[Ian_Dorin]

Going back to the original point, I have a question.

Why California? Why not go to Burgundy to make Pinot? It’s naturally and fully ripe at around 12%, wouldn’t that make more sense?

You wanna make all natural Mourvedre? You can do pretty cheap in the Languedoc!

I’m just puzzled by the reason why it has to come from Cali, and not somewhere that the natural point of ripeness occurs at a lower alcoholic potential. Seems more logical, no?

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

@Adam Lee

Richard, The United States is 52nd per capita in wine consumption. If we moved to 26th there would not be enough wine currently made in the world to support that. I’d be sold out, the Peays would be sold out, Raj and Dan Kosta would be sold out. It would be fantastic. We have a lot more to be gained working together than working separately.

#1 by Volume! As a consumer, my vision of fantastic is somewhat different.

RT

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

@D@vid Bu3ker

@Dennis Kanagie

Again, somebody takes what I said and goes WAY too far. All I did was use PETA as an exaggerated example of going overboard to deliver a message that would otherwise be popular. As mentioned between the above quoted post and this one, if they didn’t take an “IPOB vs California Cult Wine” (us against them) stance and simply marketed themselves as an alternative they’d have less critics.

That’s all I’m saying. Nowhere did I say IPOB = PETA. Nowhere did I say IPOB = radical terrorists of wine. Please don’t add anything to my statements to make me sound like a radical.

Thank you.

Perhaps it’s the way you say it that causes this to happen “again.” You set up these comments, and did so again above. You bring the confrontational nature of the relationship into your posts.

funny… IPOB is guilty of the exact same thing.

[Brady_Daniels]

@Ian Dorin

Going back to the original point, I have a question.

Why California? Why not go to Burgundy to make Pinot? It’s naturally and fully ripe at around 12%, wouldn’t that make more sense?

You wanna make all natural Mourvedre? You can do pretty cheap in the Languedoc!

I’m just puzzled by the reason why it has to come from Cali, and not somewhere that the natural point of ripeness occurs at a lower alcoholic potential. Seems more logical, no?

Nothing has to come from only California, but why not also California? There are several wineries making really good natural wine at a reasonable price there, even if they don’t use that label. Just because the OP doesn’t like a few bottles, doesn’t mean they aren’t good for others’ tastes.

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

@Brady Daniels

Nothing has to come from only California, but why not also California? There are several wineries making really good natural wine at a reasonable price there, even if they don’t use that label. Just because the OP doesn’t like a few bottles, doesn’t mean they aren’t good for others’ tastes.

i love this approach. i am all for it. i wish IPOB would adopt it: just because they don’t like a certain style of wine, doesn’t mean it is not balanced.

[Berry_Crawford]

@Ian Dorin

Why California? Why not go to Burgundy to make Pinot? It’s naturally and fully ripe at around 12%

I very strongly suspect Burgundy labels are not accurate when it comes to alcohol. Regardless I think the issue here was not alcohol but rather probably too much tannin which increases the perception of acid. I think Wes probably hit the nail on the head above. And its not like there aren’t shrill low end burgundies.

[G_Keeler]

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

@Brady Daniels

Nothing has to come from only California, but why not also California? There are several wineries making really good natural wine at a reasonable price there, even if they don’t use that label. Just because the OP doesn’t like a few bottles, doesn’t mean they aren’t good for others’ tastes.

i love this approach. i am all for it. i wish IPOB would adopt it: just because they don’t like a certain style of wine, doesn’t mean it is not balanced.

Whats wrong with having a strong point of view on something like this? I dont get why everyone has to be open to all styles?

[David_Bu3ker]

@Ian Dorin

Going back to the original point, I have a question.

Why California? Why not go to Burgundy to make Pinot? It’s naturally and fully ripe at around 12%, wouldn’t that make more sense?

You wanna make all natural Mourvedre? You can do pretty cheap in the Languedoc!

I’m just puzzled by the reason why it has to come from Cali, and not somewhere that the natural point of ripeness occurs at a lower alcoholic potential. Seems more logical, no?

California is not one, uniform place. There are cool climates and warmer climates.

By the way, what is “fully ripe?” How are you defining that?

[p_a_u_l_b_a_t_t_a_g_l_i_a]

@G. Keeler

@p a u l b a t t a g l i a

@Brady Daniels

Nothing has to come from only California, but why not also California? There are several wineries making really good natural wine at a reasonable price there, even if they don’t use that label. Just because the OP doesn’t like a few bottles, doesn’t mean they aren’t good for others’ tastes.

i love this approach. i am all for it. i wish IPOB would adopt it: just because they don’t like a certain style of wine, doesn’t mean it is not balanced.

Whats wrong with having a strong point of view on something like this? I dont get why everyone has to be open to all styles?

of course one doesn’t have to be open to all styles. in no way do i believe that. but tone down the marketing machine and let the wines speak for themselves. restrained wines are starting to see greater proliferation on wine lists, in trade publications, and on store shelves- that is a good thing. so pump the brakes on what you perceive to be “balance,” and let the consumers decide for themselves, without having to resort to cheap sales tactics.