So let me get this staight, Paul - Family Winemakers of Bullshit? World of Pinot Bullshit? Pinot Bullshit Days? Pinotbullshitfest?
Look, I know you don’t like Raj - fine. He hasn’t been on the IPOB tasting panel since he became a vintner himself. Yes, he had the idea, along with Jasmine Hirsch (a grower, in it for the long haul) to found an advocacy group, but the group is not All About Raj. We’re pursuing an ideal, and we’ve banded together to differentiate ourselves. You are fully entitled to judge that we have failed in that pursuit.
If “beauty is in the eye of the behoder,” well balance is on the palate of the imbiber, yours included.
Meanwhile, we (and I mean all of us, including Adam) have some wine to sell…haven’t you ever heard of marketing?
Hey Paul, the way to look at this, in my mind, is that there was a decade of pushing the limits of ripeness, celebrated and egged on by Parker. A lot of producers benefited greatly from that style and Parker’s praise. Some producers who weren’t making wines in that style (and had taken some lumps from Parker, btw) pushed back a little. What’s wrong with that? Really, the IPOB folks were pretty much David vs. the Parker Goliath. Maybe that’s not quite the case today, but it definitely started that way.
all of this talk that these are wines made for the dinner table. tonight we had taiwanese beef noodle soup for dinner… what would have made your wine a better fit than say a siduri?
The funny thing is you can’t just say “a Siduri”, there are so many wines, over such a broad range of vineyards that produce wines of varying “style”, you can pretty much find almost anything you want for your dinner table with Siduri. Adam gets defensive about this, but I’m not sure why.
personally, i LOVE the fact that they are making wines that appeal to different palates. there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to wine styles. but to say ones wines are made for the dinner table is equally preposterous. there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to food friendliness either. there is a place at the dinner table for higher and lower alcohol wines- maybe not at raj’s santa barbara apartment, but certainly at my home.
Paul, I absolutely agree, and I’m all for everyone drinking what they enjoy. We have wines from all across the spectrum at our Monday offline, and each one had a place.
All IPOB is is a group of small producers trying to bring some attention to their end of the spectrum (which, frankly, is still fairly well in the middle for most of them). That’s it, not putting anyone else down - at least from everything I’ve seen.
i just think if they toned down the volume on “our wines are balanced” and “our wines are made for the dinner table,” they wouldn’t rub so many people the wrong way because that is a very, very, very subjective thing.
The tea isn’t weak. It just isn’t as extracted as other teas.
On the wine chemistry, which is far more interesting than the other stuff…here are a couple of numbers from 2013:
Ft. Ross - Seaview Pinot Noir (destemmed) Picked 9/14 at 22.0 brix (all numbers after a 48 hour cold soak), pH 3.8, TA 5.1, K - 1950, Tartaric 3.4, Malic 3.52
Sebastiano (with 33% whole cluster) Picked 9/10 at 24.4 brix, pH 3.6, TA 5.0, K - 1500, Tartaric 4.6, Malic 2.3
And (for shits and giggles) From Oregon 2013 Picked 10/5 at 18.4 brix, pH 3.4, TA 6.2, K - 1280, Tartaric 3.8, Malic 3.63
So, indeed, higher K numbers in the Ft. Ross - Seaview area. But I see similar problem with much lower K numbers in Oregon. So, I guess it might also point to an area that is cool enough that the malic isn’t able to respire out. But even if it is Potassium based, then it still doesn’t change the problem (IMO). – But, the other argument I would put forth is that what I just defined as a “problem” really isn’t a problem. Its simply a difference in regions. A difference I celebrate…which is why I make wines from so many different areas. I just bristle a bit at the idea that one area is superior to the others.
As far as belonging to different advocacy groups. I belong to tons. ZAP, WOPN, PinotDay, PinotFest, Russian River Winegrowers, WOW, Family Winemakers, Wine Artisans of the SLH, Sta. Rita Hills Wineries Association, and those are just off the top of my head. All of them have criteria for being a member. ZAP – you gotta make Zin. SLH - you make wine from the SLH. PinotFest (where I always enjoy seeing you all) – you gotta make Pinot. I don’t believe there’s any advocacy group that I belong to that decides membership based on style of wine that I make, or that anyone else makes.
BTW, had a really nice glass of your 2013 Sonoma Coast at Waterbar tonight in San Francisco. Really liked it. Ordered it largely because of this discussion that we are having.
Hmm, Alan, I think I get defensive because I was an history major and tend to always push back at an attempt to write revisionist history. I remember Joe Davis getting some wonderful press for his early Arcadian Pisoni Pinot Noir. So much so that I wanted to get grapes. We got the grapes. We picked differently than Joe, but we had different sections, and we were all out there, working the vineyard, along with Gary (and then Mark). Joe and I swapped bottles.
And then Joe wrote this in his wine notes and newsletter, “My aspirations for this vineyard are somewhat different than many of the producers working with this fruit. The tendency to harvest very ripe and sometimes overripe grapes to produce a highly extracted wine with deep color and intensity and yes high alcohol has become the norm and has met with both critical and consumer success. While I applaud my colleagues for their successes I do not subscribe to their theories that this is the best way to make Pinot Noir here in California. Don’t get me wrong I have been tempted to take this path of least resistance and to conform to what I call the McDonalds method of winemaking but alas I cannot bring myself to purposely throw in the towel.”
So, yes, I got defensive. Being called McDonalds will do that to you. Or at least to me. I imagine it might to you as well.
I have a certain view on this. I’m in science, and have interacted with a lot of scientists, some of them pretty famous in their field, some of them even Nobel prize winners. What I’ve found in many cases is that confidence often leads to humility. The most accomplished, smartest people I’ve known have rarely had to proclaim it themselves, or defend what they do. And if you think scientists don’t attack each other just as much as winemakers do, you would be wrong The point being, you don’t need to defend yourself. You do what you do because you think it’s the right thing, that’s all that matters.
And who is commercially more successful, you or Joe? I don’t know for sure, but I’m pretty sure it’s you
I agree with this in principal - it’s not the message, it’s the delivery. PETA is a good example. They’re message of better treatment for animals is great, and they’d have a HUGE following if they weren’t so radical. Sometimes going to the opposite extreme makes you just as unappealing or more.
Commercial success, confidence, smartest and defensive. . You’re talking like you have the slightest clue what my motivation is or even what I perceive it should be.
Generally I’ve done and said things because they feel right to me and question either standard norms or question what I believe. I’m vocal about it. Apparently because that’s me too. That’s pretty much all that a dozen years of therapy have given me. If you know more start charging me by the 50 minute mark.
Adam, I have no clue what your motivation is. I’m happy that you’re one of the extremely few winemakers who feel free enough to come here and say anything. All I meant to imply is that you have been very successful, you produce what you believe, and you have no reason in the least to be defensive. It wasn’t a criticism, it was a compliment.
When Joe wrote that, he was the one being defensive, you should just ignore it.
I am fortunate because I am in a position to ignore it. Others are not in such a position and haven’t yet had similar commercial success. They deserve a voice. Maybe that’s enough reason for me.
They’re a marketing group. Those phrases reach out to exactly who they are aimed at to communicate what they are making. It’s effective, it works. A lot of people pretty much gave up on CA wines, so they are drawing people back. Do you have a better idea to market moderately ripe artisanal wines?
If there’s a quibble, it’s that they’re an exclusionary clique due to the fact that they are a marketing group. They seem to be careful not to dilute their “brand” by overinflating their membership. There are certainly a lot more outsiders that would fit the bill than members.
Often wondered, is there any statistical basis for the “a lot of people pretty much gave up on CA wines” comment. I mean, rate of growth was pretty extraordinary during the time period you are referring to. And the highest rate of growth in consumption between 2013 and 2014 was in wines over 14 percent (per the Wine Institute)
You don’t see winemakers standing in front of the gates at Shafer or Harlan, screaming at consumers or trying to throw extracted Cabernet juice on them.
IPOB and PETA are pretty far apart in their radicalism. Poles apart in fact. IPOB is not at all radical. IPOB is ZAP (Zinfandel Advocates and Producers) with better marketing. The people who get all up in arms about IPOB are merely venting their own commercial or personal taste insecurities.
No doubt some people here on this board did. And others not on this board did. But did a lot? Not from numbers that I see. It’s easy for those of us here to think we are a bigger group than we actually are.
It’s also possible that IPOB is bringing new folks into the CA drinking fold. If so, and I hope so, that would be fantastic.
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The point being, you don’t need to defend yourself. You do what you do because you think it’s the right thing, that’s all that matters.![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}