Help me get into Bordeaux

Burgundy was my first crush, and we are still actively dating, but I’m young and need to explore a bit more before I’m ready to settle down for good, if you get what I mean :wink:

Thanks Robert, your insight on Bordeaux is invaluable. By the way I forgot to mention that I have a 2016 Belgrave lying around that came in a mixed dozen. There is no mention about it in the traditional vs modernists thread, do happen to have any experience with this producer?

Good stuff, thanks Paul!

I don’t think anyone mentioned Ch. Labegorce, which has been doing well for the last decade.
Another one to look for in recent vintages is Fourcas Dupre (Listrac).

Another thumbs down vote to La Vieille Cure (basically a Sonoma Merlot at this point) and a thumbs up to Lanessan which is not only inexpensive but ages well.

Meyney can be very good, the 86 and 89 from the 80s and 2009 on. The 2014 Meyney is a good deal that is going to age very well in a classical style

Another wine that is consistently moderately priced and high quality is Branaire Ducru. It is a classed growth and has some extra polish and sophistication while still being in a fairly classical style.

Bear in mind when you taste aged Bordeaux that you are tasting not only the aging process but the change in styles over the years. No guarantee that today’s wines will age like what you try from the 80s or 90s.

Probably the biggest tip I can give is to seek out lower level 2000 Bordeaux. They are drinking very well right now, but still have room to age, and that vintage was mostly extremely consistent up and down the hierarchy. Also is a vintage that has a good combination of fruit and structure

Not sure if it has been mentioned above, but I think Chasse Spleen belongs on any great qpr list. I haven’t bought any recently as I stopped buting Bordeaux due to age 10 years ago, but the last few vintages that I did buy (2000 and a surprisingly good 2002) are still excellent.

Robert is one of the people you should be listening to on Bordeaux. Mark is another, but I think Mark tends to buy higher end wine than Robert - although they seem to come together on Vieux Chateau Certain.

I really like 2016 Chasse Spleen. I grabbed some 375s as well.

Mark is a James Bond type. I’m just plain ‘ole country.

We both do love VCC. Elixir.

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I think this is what I said, but, as usual, you used more colorful and descriptive language.

PS. Trotanoy as well. Mark sold me some 1998 and 2000, and that 1998 reminded me that I needed to reach into my little Wrangler Jeans pockets and throw a few extra boxes of this hooch into the back of my truck.

For my two cents, I would suggest you may want to explore Bordeaux with an open mind earlier on, rather than going in with the perspective that you should only look at the small fraction of Bordeaux which are considered non-modern or whatever on WB. I know plenty of experienced, smart wine enthusiasts whose primary love is Burgundy but who also love much of the range of good Bordeaux without being limited to the Lanessan / Sociando / Meyney / BAMA etc. short list, so there is nothing incompatible about that.

Once you’ve explored around, like Alfert has done for example, you may decide there are only certain producers or styles that you like, and of course, then zero in on those for yourself. That makes perfect sense. But I would suggest not going into it viewing Bordeaux as a binary “balanced and classic vs. freakish modern concoction” set of choices where you should only consider the former. The styles are much more of a spectrum than a binary choice, and you may find that there are many good examples of producers in various stylistic subcategories.

Have fun with the journey. Bordeaux is amazing, and it offers the most consistently great and accessible QPR in the $20-50 price range of any region in the world.

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The 1998 Trot is a magnificent wine, in a vintage for Right Bank wines that is as good as any I have come across.

In very short: 2009 far too youthful, 2000 or older.
1 rec: if you find Potensac …

Solid advice, Chris.

This is great advice. If you find that the bigger-style wines from the bigger/riper vintages are not as much to your liking, you might find that a much larger portion of producers made wines that feel more medium to lighter weight and classical if you look at some of the cooler vintages, like 2002, 2004 and 2008.

You will find much more favorable pricing on wines from good producers, and wines that probably do not need as many years to get into their drinking window.

Potensac is an excellent recommendation.

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Some labels to keep an eye out for, as far as inexpensive Bordeaux that can be a great value. I think with these kinds of petit chateaux, you’re more likely to find them and to want to buy them from the better vintages like 2010, 2015 and 2016 – in Bordeaux, those better vintages really are a rising tide for the more modest labels.

Poujeaux
Senejac
Joanin Becot
Caronne Ste. Gemme
Fombrauge
Potensac
La Vieille Cure (with the caveat that it has some detractors, as noted in the thread)
Lanessan
Cantemerle

Those run roughly from $15-30 in the US. Easy to experiment around, and speaking broadly, they can be drunk young with a decant, or with short to medium aging.

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Thanks Chris for all your help so far :+1:

Branaire Ducru is a wine I’d strongly recommend that you try…it’s reasonably priced, ages well, and readily available. The 2000 is absolutely singing right now! Grand Puy Lacoste is even better, and just a touch more expensive. Personally, I’d rather have one of these bottles than three of the $30 producers. For me, the magic of Bordeaux is not what they taste like young, but what they evolve into with age!

By all means, you should try the classic old school wines. But if you’re new to Bordeaux you should experience the full spectrum and decide which ones are most suited to your palate. The advice in this thread skews heavily towards the lean and some-would-say austere old school side of Bordeaux. There are many middle of the road wines and also more modern wines that still retain a sense of freshness and energy. There’s a lot of right bank bashing, but not all St Emilion are overripe monster wines. I had a 2005 Rol Valentin a couple nights ago - an excellent example of a middle of the road, medium bodied St Emilion with age on it - and they can still be had for ~$50-60 US. Same goes for Nenin, a bargain in Pomerol with loads of fruit and a bit of oak that I find to be quite seductive, but strict traditionalists would hate. Other good affordable right banks (in styles across the spectrum) include La Pointe and Bourgneuf in Pomerol; Laroque, Tour St. Christophe, Larcis-Ducasse, Quinault L’Enclos in St Emilion. You may not like the wines but you should try them and figure out for yourself rather than just taking other people’s words for it. You may find that there’s room for 1990 Louviere and 2016 Laroque in your wheelhouse.

Which is pretty much what Chris said.

Hi Jan,

Here are my two cents and how I would strategically proceed:

  1. Do a lot of research before just buying some wines. Bordeaux is extremely well researched with up to 20+ critics publishing scores before the wine is offered En Primeur (this year might be an exception). On back vintages you have Cellartracker.com where you can find and compare the average score for all wines of a winery, a vintage, etc. etc. With that in mind we get to step 2) and 3).

  2. For En Primeur buying, make an Excel Spreadsheet an enter all scores. While one critic might not always be right, the average score of many critics usually draws a pretty accurate picture of the wines quality. With average scores of many critics you can make top 5 and top 10 lists for wines in any given price range. Considering your budget I would only look at the top 5 wines (in terms of average score) in the 25-50 dollars price range and the top 5 wines in the 50 to 75 dollars price range and consider buy some of these wines in both ranges.

  3. For back vintages use the Cellartracker.com user rating and make the same top 5 or top 10 lists and buy accordingly. While one users taste, tasting note or score might be flawed, the average is pretty accurate.

  4. Over point 2) and point 3) buying you put another layer: your knowledge about what style of wine you like and what not. So learn about the vintage character (rather a classic vintage, rather a ripe vintage, one to drink earlier, one to drink in 20 years), look at the alcohol levels of the different wines and in different vintages. Adjust your buying lists accordingly. Contrary what others here tell you, I would strongly focus on the very good to great vintages (82, 89, 90, 00, 05, 09, 10, 15, 16, 18, 19 with some pockets of greatness on one or both sides in 85, 86, 96, 98, 01). While you might have pleasant experiences with the before mentioned 2008s or 2014s, these wines will never be as complex, precise and exciting as the wines in the best vintages (the Cellartracker.com scores give you a good idea of what to expect in the different vintages). And even the riper vintages have highly elegant and even burgundian wines in them, you just have to do the research to find them. So why settle for something inferior if you can have the best.

  5. Having said 4), the best way to get to know Bordeaux and learn what you like and don’t like is to do a proper horizontal tasting first. Only by tasting a minimum of 2, better 3 wines of each appellation (Pessac-Leognan, Margaux, Pauillac, St. Estephe, St. Julien on the left, St. Emilion and Pomerol on the right ban) side by side, you will learn about the character, about the differences and understand the style differences.

  6. Having said 5), it would be fundamental to do a vertical tasting showcasing the same wine over 30 or better 40 years. There are for sure such events in Melbourne and you should try to participate in one to learn how these wines develop. Try to participate in a tasting of a winery with a good reputation. The tasting also should include many good vintages (not just off vintages, because you will mainly buy good vintages anyway) => so try to get a tasting where you can taste at least some of these vintages 1982, 1985, 1989, 1990, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016, 2018 (ideally at least a few olden goldies and a few newer superstars).

  7. Start building a collection. Following the advice on 2) you should start buying a few wines in every very good+ vintage (otherwise you will always have the problem to have nothing mature in your cellar, and buying older wines is a) more expensive and b) subject to availability and c) risky. The good thing about doing a lot of research before buying En Primeur and just buy the top wines in each price range: it gives you downside protection. If you don’t like the wines in the future or don’t like Bordeaux anymore, the highly rated wines will not have lost value. Usually they even had a good price to excellent price performance. The downside here is: this is mainly true for the higher priced wines. Wines in the 25- to 50 dollars range usually don’t have much price performance if at all.

Hope this helps.