How German Wine Found Its Sweet Spot

[Hank_Victor]

“Viticulture: An introduction to commercial grape growing for wine production” by Stephen Skelton MW is on sale at Amazon for $28.

But will Otto buy it?

Why not? It might come handy since I have couple of hybrid vines growing nearby.

I’m sure Otto has read that book from front to cover at least twice by now. I was hoping others in this thread will pick it up and give it a glance as it is a really great introductory book for viticulture.

[DougS]

But will Otto buy it?

Why not? It might come handy since I have couple of hybrid vines growing nearby.

I’m sure Otto has read that book from front to cover at least twice by now. I was hoping others in this thread will pick it up and give it a glance as it is a really great introductory book for viticulture.

I meant to say I thought it was a clever post.

[Joseph_MR]

I’m just curious if anyone has tried Eva Fricke’s wines. Ive gotten a couple offers for them but don’t know much about them. Thoughts?

The Wisperwind bottling, in an off-dry style, I have enjoyed very much.

[bob_parsons_alberta]

TN: 2017 Weingut Janus Herxheimer Chardonnay Spatlese Trocken.

Staff downtown tipped me off regards this chardonnay. $22 Cdn, nice label presentation.
Light lemon color and an enticing nose…tropical fruits, floral, peach with tones of minerality.
Initial entry thought was off-dry, good acidity and nice fruit balance. I did not serve too chilled, enjoyed the lengthy finish. “Not a creamy style” from across the table! Must be a Calif chard fan eh.
Apple, pear, mineral tones after a couple of hours. I would sure buy again, a nice surprise.

[Adam_Frisch]

Had Bill Hooper’s 2018 Paetra Willamette Riesling. Just like I like it! Bone dry (less than 1g/L according to Bill) and a crisp, fresh green apple feel. Excellent stuff. I had ordered some other ones of his outings, but yet to get to them. Look forward.

[Adam_Frisch]

TN: 2017 Von Winning Riesling: Green apples, green apples and then some more green apples. A little citrus maybe? From Pfalz region. Recommended by K&L as a “really dry” Riesling and imported by Skurnik. Was (of course) not at all dry, but rather sweet. The 12% ABV was a warning sign, perhaps. Takeaway from this is that there is no way for a lowly layman like myself to ever know if you’ll get a dry or a sweet Riesling in the Trocken category unless you’ve already tasted it before. Let’s petition for Knochentrocken!

[Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w]

Did you every consider maybe you’re a freak unsuited to Riesling, maybe part of a majority?

[David_K2]

Adam: you are wrong. It’s not a matter of differing taste. You are just wrong.

[Adam_Frisch]

About what? That trocken doesn’t mean dry at all?

[David_K2]

Yes. And 12% is evidence in support of it actually being dry, not the opposite.

[Otto_Forsberg]

What I could find was that there was approx 9 g/l of residual sugar in the 2017 vintage of Vin Winning Drache Riesling, but also 8,9 g/l acidity, which easily offsets most if not all sugary sweetness. Considering 10 g/l is the limit for semi-dry whites, it’s quite far-fetched to call that wine “sweet” - it fits the definition of “dry” or “Trocken”.

[Adam_Frisch]

I wasn’t gonna get in to this, but I’ve had some wine, so…:

What is far-fetched is to call this a dry wine. 9g is what, the highest level allowed before it needs to drop the Trocken classification? I’m unsure of what part of “dry” you defenders are not understanding properly? I’m not asking for “dry approximation/feeling”, I’m asking for actually dry. There is only one way to define dry. Dryness is not classified as “well, because the acidity is so high it can take more sugar”. That’s not dry. That’s dry by proxy. When you say a wine fermented to dryness, it means it fermented until most or all of the sugar was gone. It doesn’t mean, “hey, let’s nuke it with SO2 and stop fermentation to keep 9g of sugar in there”. That’s not the definition of dryness. I’m talking dry, dry. Why are you fighting it so much? Why are you not admitting it’s a classification or a structural problem? Why are you defending something that is demonstrably very nebulous and completely undefined in its category?

Trocken is a meaningless classification. Let me put it another way: If you were to follow a strict ketogenic diet, how would you find out which Rieslings you could drink?

[Otto_Forsberg]

Because you have to put limits somewhere, but Riesling - and other high-acid varieties - can be notoriously difficult to work with. For example Riesling can be so high in acidity that the yeast struggles to even kick off the fermentation, let alone keep it going. If a wine that tastes dry, but doesn’t go below - say - 8 g/l, would it be ok to ban this wine from calling it Trocken? The 10 g/l limit is there to give some leeway. However, the limit must be somewhere, and if the wine stops at 11 g/l, well, bad luck.

The leeway also permits for vintage variation. A wine that ferments to Knochentrocken (I’m not sure how you think that should be pronounced, since it’d be something like “knohhentrocken”, not “knockentrocken”) might be perfectly balanced in a warmer year, but undrinkably lean and just too austere in a cooler year. Once you’ve tasted enough really bone-dry German Rieslings, you’ll start noticing that most of them aren’t that enjoyable. And unlike you seem to think, there are quite a bit of them out there.

Probably you’ll one day learn that Riesling might behave quite differently from what you expect. And if a Riesling stops fermenting at 12 g/l RS, which goes out first? Your wish to make bone-dry wines or your wish to make wines with minimal intervention?

[Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w]

I wasn’t gonna get in to this, but I’ve had some wine, so…:

What is far-fetched is to call this a dry wine. 9g is what, the highest level allowed before it needs to drop the Trocken classification? I’m unsure of what part of “dry” you defenders are not understanding properly? I’m not asking for “dry approximation/feeling”, I’m asking for actually dry. There is only one way to define dry. Dryness is not classified as “well, because the acidity is so high it can take more sugar”. That’s not dry. That’s dry by proxy. When you say a wine fermented to dryness, it means it fermented until most or all of the sugar was gone. It doesn’t mean, “hey, let’s nuke it with SO2 and stop fermentation to keep 9g of sugar in there”. That’s not the definition of dryness. I’m talking dry, dry. Why are you fighting it so much? Why are you not admitting it’s a classification or a structural problem? Why are you defending something that is demonstrably very nebulous and completely undefined in its category?

Trocken is a meaningless classification. Let me put it another way: If you were to follow a strict ketogenic diet, how would you find out which Rieslings you could drink?

Stop drinking Riesling.

[David_Bu3ker]

I know this much…I never want to drink a Riesling made by Adam Frisch. I can already sense extreme imbalance.

[Claus_Jeppesen]

I wasn’t gonna get in to this, but I’ve had some wine, so…:

What is far-fetched is to call this a dry wine. 9g is what, the highest level allowed before it needs to drop the Trocken classification? I’m unsure of what part of “dry” you defenders are not understanding properly? I’m not asking for “dry approximation/feeling”, I’m asking for actually dry. There is only one way to define dry. Dryness is not classified as “well, because the acidity is so high it can take more sugar”. That’s not dry. That’s dry by proxy. When you say a wine fermented to dryness, it means it fermented until most or all of the sugar was gone. It doesn’t mean, “hey, let’s nuke it with SO2 and stop fermentation to keep 9g of sugar in there”. That’s not the definition of dryness. I’m talking dry, dry. Why are you fighting it so much? Why are you not admitting it’s a classification or a structural problem? Why are you defending something that is demonstrably very nebulous and completely undefined in its category?

Trocken is a meaningless classification. Let me put it another way: If you were to follow a strict ketogenic diet, how would you find out which Rieslings you could drink?

Stop drinking Riesling.

Or drink Chardonnay, oh wait it is also sweet
Chinon, same same
Sauvignon B meeh
Etc
Maybe you should try Grüner Veltliner
Or just a dry Riesling

[DougS]

It doesn’t mean, “hey, let’s nuke it with SO2 and stop fermentation to keep 9g of sugar in there”.

You truly have no idea what you’re talking about.

[David_K2]

I know this much…I never want to drink a Riesling made by Adam Frisch. I can already sense extreme imbalance.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I know this much…I never want to drink a Riesling made by Adam Frisch. I can already sense extreme imbalance.

+1.

Like I suggested above, forcing a Riesling to ferment absolutely dry is not advised.

Having a Riesling with alcohol too high is not advised.

Having no sugar left to balance high acidity is not advised.

If a grower wants to make good Riesling, she/he has to deal with and understand Riesling and how it grows and ferments under the ambient conditions available to or imposed by the grower. That alone would take years (and did in Germany, Austria, Alsace). The “absolute dry” condition imposed on that may be possible but I would not bet on making anything good or interesting. Much more likely is something akin to bad gin.

[Adam_Frisch]

Because you have to put limits somewhere, but Riesling - and other high-acid varieties - can be notoriously difficult to work with. For example Riesling can be so high in acidity that the yeast struggles to even kick off the fermentation, let alone keep it going. If a wine that tastes dry, but doesn’t go below - say - 8 g/l, would it be ok to ban this wine from calling it Trocken? The 10 g/l limit is there to give some leeway. However, the limit must be somewhere, and if the wine stops at 11 g/l, well, bad luck.

The leeway also permits for vintage variation. A wine that ferments to Knochentrocken (I’m not sure how you think that should be pronounced, since it’d be something like “knohhentrocken”, not “knockentrocken”) might be perfectly balanced in a warmer year, but undrinkably lean and just too austere in a cooler year. Once you’ve tasted enough really bone-dry German Rieslings, you’ll start noticing that most of them aren’t that enjoyable. And unlike you seem to think, there are quite a bit of them out there.

Probably you’ll one day learn that Riesling might behave quite differently from what you expect. And if a Riesling stops fermenting at 12 g/l RS, which goes out first? Your wish to make bone-dry wines or your wish to make wines with minimal intervention?

I knew I was gonna regret posting when drunk. In any case, thanks for arguing in a friendly way, Otto.

You truly have no idea what you’re talking about.

How do you stop a fermentation from going dry in a stylistically repeatable way?