How German Wine Found Its Sweet Spot

Mattstolz · September 15, 2019, 12:41pm

I’m just curious if anyone has tried Eva Fricke’s wines. Ive gotten a couple offers for them but don’t know much about them. Thoughts?

I’ve had a few. The regular Rheingau Trocken isn’t particularly interesting, but the higher-tier ones are. The style is lean and crisp, but more in the vein of “electric” than austere. Steely as mineral, as one’d expect from a Rheingau Riesling.

It’s interesting that the part Fricke’s vineyards are located - the westernmost extremes of Rheingau - is long past the bend of Rhine, thus basically in Mittlerhein wine region (and actually the vineyards lying on the opposite side of the river are Mittelrhein, not Rheingau), but since the vineyards are located in the administrative region of Hesse, they’ve been always considered to be part of the Rheingau wine region. From geological point of view, however, the westernmost reaches of Rheingau are similar to the Mittlerhein region, not as much to the greater Rheingau region located before the Rhine bend.

that is pretty interesting. sounds like I would enjoy these. guess I better dig around for those offers again. haha thanks!

Adam_Frisch · September 17, 2019, 8:58pm

Ha, I pay a higher yearly fee here (ITB) to be allowed to talk about winemaking, but nobody wants to be accused of being a shill. Me least of all. So I won’t talk about that anymore and let the wines speak with their own voice eventually.

One last note on the subject:

Here in the New World we have the possibility to make low alcohol wines that don’t have extreme acidity, something they can’t easily do in the Old World. I have a hunch (which is all winemaking is, after all), which might turn out to be completely wrong, that by picking it just a tad later, at a potential abv of 13.5-14%, that the fruits will have developed a little more, moved away from green apples/citrus and into something more amber-fruited and maybe more complex. The acidity should have started to migrate towards (what I personally think is) the sweet spot for many wines, and that is the pH 3.3-3.6 region. I can not find any rational or learned reason, in theory, why the Riesling grape could not perform in this bracket as a dry wine - and not have to rely on sugar to balance that high acid.

Jayson_Cohen · September 17, 2019, 9:23pm

Giggle away. We should not be creating new categories for a guy who is ITB, but clearly does not understand Riesling.

So, your posts on this topic are commercial? About how you are doing drier than anyone else?

I pay a higher yearly fee here (ITB) to be allowed to talk about winemaking, but nobody wants to be accused of being a shill. Me least of all. So I’ll just shut up about it and let the wines speak with their own voice eventually. One last note on the subject:

Here in the New World we have the possibility to make low alcohol wines that don’t have extreme acidity, something they can’t easily do in the Old World. I have a hunch (which is all winemaking is, after all), which might turn out to be completely wrong, that by picking it just a tad later, at a potential abv of 13.5-14%, that the fruits will have developed a little more, moved away from green apples/citrus and into something more amber-fruited, perhaps more complex. The acidity should have started to migrate towards what I personally think is the sweet spot for many wines, and that is the pH 3.3-3.6 region. I can not find any rational or learned reason, in theory, why the Riesling grape could not perform in this bracket as a dry wine.

Good luck with complexity depending on your vine age and subsoil.

What you are describing though is roughly the technical parameters of Austrian Riesling but with your pH probably a little too high (esp at your higher range) not to produce a blowsy Riesling at that alcohol level. Global warming has not been kind to the balance of Rieslings coming even out of historically preferred Austrian sites due to alcohol levels above 13.5% or so IMO. I would google Austrian Riesling and pH and start reading a bit.

Otto_Forsberg · September 18, 2019, 5:15am

Giggle away. We should not be creating new categories for a guy who is ITB, but clearly does not understand Riesling.

So, your posts on this topic are commercial? About how you are doing drier than anyone else?

Ha, I pay a higher yearly fee here (ITB) to be allowed to talk about winemaking, but nobody wants to be accused of being a shill. Me least of all. So I won’t talk about that anymore and let the wines speak with their own voice eventually.

One last note on the subject:

Here in the New World we have the possibility to make low alcohol wines that don’t have extreme acidity, something they can’t easily do in the Old World. I have a hunch (which is all winemaking is, after all), which might turn out to be completely wrong, that by picking it just a tad later, at a potential abv of 13.5-14%, that the fruits will have developed a little more, moved away from green apples/citrus and into something more amber-fruited and maybe more complex. The acidity should have started to migrate towards (what I personally think is) the sweet spot for many wines, and that is the pH 3.3-3.6 region. I can not find any rational or learned reason, in theory, why the Riesling grape could not perform in this bracket as a dry wine - and not have to rely on sugar to balance that high acid.

I’ve had some dry Rieslings from warm vintages grown in hot spots and Riesling really doesn’t hide its alcohol well. 13,5% starts to be at the high extreme and 14% sounds just boozy. Some Austrian Rieslings can be impressive, but nowadays most Wachau Smaragd Rieslings tend to be just blowzy and anonymously fruited.

I suppose you know what is grape overripeness? It’s the point where the grape is lacking acidity, is too high in potential alcohol and the variety has lost its varietal flavors, becoming just flabby with anonymous fruit flavors (jammy red fruit with red grapes, marmaladey candy and canned exotic fruits with white grapes). Some grape varieties seem to be able to withstand prolonged harvests without ever going to overripeness, but Riesling certainly can go there in too warm climates / temperatures. What you are describing as a sweet spot sounds more like a threshold of overripeness. If I see a 14% Riesling in a shop, I’m very sure to leave it untouched.

I really don’t understand why you want to produce lower-acid wines with high alcohol and then use cool-climate high-acidity variety like Riesling for such job. That makes literally zero sense.

Otto_Forsberg · September 18, 2019, 5:17am

And I really didn’t understand your point on winemakers not being able to make wines without extreme acidity in the Old World.

Have you watched news? The current problem is that most producers can’t really make much high-acid Riesling in the Old World because of the constantly warmer climates. They’d want to make wines with racy acidities, but they can’t and they are upset because their Riesling are turning flabby, blowzy and boozy.

Adam_Frisch · September 18, 2019, 7:28am

Maybe you’re not my customer then. High acid is easy, just pick earlier. I prefer to pick reds early and whites later. Just my personal preference as to the style I like.

There’s no right or wrong.

Otto_Forsberg · September 18, 2019, 7:30am

Oh my god.

If that is so easy, why haven’t the German people realized that sooner? Why they aren’t picking the grapes earlier?

Maybe - just maybe - picking early might not be the solution?

Adam_Frisch · September 18, 2019, 7:40am

I totally agree.

Hank_Victor · September 18, 2019, 4:42pm

Hank_Victor · September 18, 2019, 4:43pm

“Viticulture: An introduction to commercial grape growing for wine production” by Stephen Skelton MW is on sale at Amazon for $28.

DougS · September 18, 2019, 5:00pm

I don’t agree with a lot of what you’ve said in this thread, but this part really does not make sense, for so many reasons.

Otto_Forsberg · September 18, 2019, 5:48pm

It does make sense, but oftentimes not good wines.

J_Rock · September 18, 2019, 6:18pm

Adam, when do you think your Riesling will be ready? Instead of debating whether or not you have a good strategy, I’d rather just taste the wine!

Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w · September 19, 2019, 1:50am

But will Otto buy it?

Otto_Forsberg · September 19, 2019, 5:30am

Why not? It might come handy since I have couple of hybrid vines growing nearby.

Adam_Frisch · September 19, 2019, 6:59am

Thanks, answer is I don’t know exactly. I’m picking this harvest for first time. Riesling is at 17 Brix right now, so has ways to go. Prob another 5 weeks of hanging. Fall 2020? But I wouldn’t be surprised if it needs more time, so 2021 prob a better bet. Or maybe never, if it turns out crap.

Oh, I drank this a month or so ago. Recommended by K&L when I asked for a dry one. Again, their definition of dry differs from mine… Certainly not Knochentrocken . To me, this was off dry, leaning into sweetness. But it was decent. Not as good as the Julian Schaal I bought a few months earlier, but same level of sweetness, I would say. This was a Nahe/Rhine Riesling, apparently. Not sure what the difference is from Mosel region, but I’m assuming not as prestigious?

Otto_Forsberg · September 19, 2019, 8:09am

Adam, when do you think your Riesling will be ready? Instead of debating whether or not you have a good strategy, I’d rather just taste the wine!

Thanks, answer is I don’t know exactly. I’m picking this harvest for first time. Riesling is at 17 Brix right now, so has ways to go. Prob another 5 weeks of hanging. Fall 2020? But I wouldn’t be surprised if it needs more time, so 2021 prob a better bet. Or maybe never, if it turns out crap.

Oh, I drank this a month or so ago. Recommended by K&L when I asked for a dry one. Again, their definition of dry differs from mine… Certainly not Knochentrocken . To me, this was off dry, leaning into sweetness. But it was decent. Not as good as the Julian Schaal I bought a few months earlier, but same level of sweetness, I would say. This was a Nahe/Rhine Riesling, apparently. Not sure what the difference is from Mosel region, but I’m assuming not as prestigious?

That’s Nahe, an entirely different river from Rhine - especially the village Bockenau, which is located very far away from Rhine. Also, the wine clocks at 4.7 g/l residual sugar with 8.7 g/l of acidity. I really don’t understand where you get that sweetmess - unless it is the ripeness of the fruit you are tasting (and towards which you are aiming yourself…)

At less than 5 g/l of residual sugar and having twice as much acidity, this wine should technically be well into Knochentrocken territory - no matter how it tastes like.

J_Rock · September 19, 2019, 8:16am

Nahe might not be quite as well known or popular as Mosel, but many excellent wines come from Nahe. Schafer-Frohlich is a well regarded Nahe producer, but when I think of Nahe, I think of the excellent wines from Donnhoff. I generally prefer Donnhoff’s sweeter wines (and sweeter Rieslings in General), but their GG’s are very dry and extremely well received.

J_Rock · September 19, 2019, 8:18am

I know some people who seem to confuse fruitiness with sweetness or at least perceive fruitiness as sweetness to some degree.

James_Billy · September 19, 2019, 1:33pm

And then the winemakers from the Mosel dirty the water further by calling their sweet wines fruity not sweet! Where does that leave dry wines with fruit flavours?