I paid over $6000 through Commerce Corner, seller has disappeared

WINE TALK
21

That is an awful story to read George and I’m sorry. If not for your profession there are ways to help this Rob Stewart find his pen & checkbook. Costs not too prohibitive in this economy either.

I had two CC deals go sideways but I got my $ back, I hope you get yours back as well.

22

I have known Maureen and Rob for many years, as have a good number of people who frequent this board. I have never known either of them to be anything but generous, honest, hard-working, and extraordinarily knowledgeable wine lovers (he being a wine educator). If it gives you any peace of mind, I would be stunned if you don’t eventually end up receiving your wines. I won’t say if Maureen has any responsibility here or not. I do think that bringing it out publicly will help bring this matter to a satisfactory resolution.

23

Agreed. I looked up the ad and she begins it with, “A good friend and longtime wine collector needs to raise some cash and as he’s not a participant on this board, I said I’d offer them for him.”

She vouched for him, she posted the ad, I would say that she is a little more involved now than she thinks she is. At the very least, she should be calling him up or knocking on his door and helping you get to the bottom of this.

Also, this was in the ad: “Prefer Washington, DC-area purchaser or someone who can accept through Domaine Storage.” Were you going to accept through Domaine Storage? As the transaction didn’t yet reach the shipping stage, I’m not sure the issue with shipping alchohol would be an impediment to enforcing your legal rights. I’d be inclined to hop on a plane, and show up at his doorstep. If he doesn’t produce the wine, have the police come by to discuss with them. At the very least, don’t let this go quietly into the night.

24

Who is the good friend who posted the listing? Im curious since no one at Domaine has any recollection of being asked or told about this deal. We act as an informal escrow agent of sorts for people all the time. Wines are dropped and put in a locker, with specific instructions for us to follow. I don’t recall that we have ever had an issue. This is a service we are happy to provide, but we certainly don’t like anyone using our name without reaching out and actually checking with us first.

If anyone knows who the listing member is, and I have any ability to contact that person, Ill do so happily and try to help.

thx

25

“Needs to raise some cash…”

Not a good sign of things to come.

26

sorry for your loss and hope it all gets worked out, hopefully with the help of the friend who vouched.

27

Quick search turns up Maureen Nelson. Really seems like she should be fully engaged in the resolution. I have sold custom bicycles on bicycle forums on behalf of friends and always knew that if something went wrong, I would have to step up, all the way up.

28

I’ve sold things for people on eBay using my account. I know I am on the hook no matter what.

29

I’ll preface this by saying this is not legal advice (and none of you should think of me as your lawyer or that I am advising you); it’s just what I would think about doing if this happened to me. To be clear, my personal approach would be on the aggressive end of the spectrum. But $6,600 is a lot of money, and I personally would not let this slide.

  1. I’d tell the “trusted member” of this community that I expect her to use her best efforts to help me recover my wine or my money. I’d demand that she provide the “seller’s” full contact information. I’d tell her that while I’d remain willing to accept either and drop the issue, if I’m not satisfied that this guy intends to make me whole in a reasonable amount of time, I’m going to proceed as if I am a victim of wire fraud, which is exactly what this is starting to look like, and unfortunately, the “trusted” member of the community appears to have facilitated that fraud, so she can give up any idea that she’s not involved right now. I’d tell her that she is free to share my intentions with her “good friend” and see if she can broker a resolution without further escalation.

  2. If I didn’t feel as if I were making progress through the “trusted member,” I’d consult a Virginia criminal lawyer who has experience with federal white collar defense (ex-Assistant U.S. Attorney would be ideal). I’d be willing to pay for a short consultation (although they might do it for free). I’d ask him/her what the process would be for reporting a crime and explain the facts of the case. I’d be interested in his/her take on what the “seller’s” possible responses/defenses might be.

  3. Assuming no progress (and assuming the Virginia lawyer didn’t tell me anything that made me re-think), I’d then write the “seller” a letter, confirming that I understood him to be offering to sell me wine, that, as a person “in the business” in Virginia, I understood that he would have only offered to sell me wine in a manner that complied with all local laws, and that I sent him money on [DATE] in good faith and in reliance on his promises. But since then, he’s avoided all of my efforts to contact him [I’d probably catalog each attempt to contact him, including when he picked up the phone] and has not provided me the wine as agreed. I’d explain that I expect to receive my wine or a complete refund within 10 days and that if he is unable to provide either by then, I expect a full explanation in writing. I’d also quote the federal wire fraud statute, which provides:

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

18 U.S.C. § 1343. I’d copy the “trusted member” of this community on the letter.

Finally, anyone who has posted something along the lines of “you were basically asking to be defrauded” is an idiot. This really sucks, George.

30

“A good friend and longtime wine collector needs to raise some cash and as he’s not a participant on this board, I said I’d offer them for him.”
That would have made me pass. Why couldn’t he join the forum himself? Because he’d have to identify himself?

That said, if she only made the intro and all other parts of the transactions went between the other two parties, I don’t know how she’s really on the hook. Just for making the intro? If you buy real estate and enter a contract with the seller, who after signing and accepting your down payment decides not to turn over the property, does the listing agent bear responsibility?

George - unfortunately I think you’re screwed as far as a legal remedy goes. Flying out there and showing up at his door may not make any sense either as he may have neither the wine nor the money. Moreover, if you sent a check, rather than going through PayPal or something like that, I don’t see how you’ll ever connect that money to the wine. Maybe a series of e-mails indicates some intent to proceed, but I’m not sure how you make a case for fraud when engaged in an illegal activity.

See the VA statute here:

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+4.1-207

31

Also, I disagree that it is self-evident that George was doing anything illegal. It’s not the law in any state that the buyer has an obligation to confirm that a seller has a license. It’s on the seller. In this case, it even appears that this guy is a “professional” in the wine business. For all we know, he might even have a retail license.

32

If Maureen is the trusted board member, my sympathies for George increase. Maureen is, in fact, as trustworthy a member of this board as any I know, and if she actually vouched for this guy that would have gone a very long way with me. And if the facts are as George describes them (and I have no reason to doubt them) I am certain that Maureen is as hurt by this as anyone. I am also certain that she will do whatever she can to help because of the person she is.

33

I’m sorry - where in that statute does it say that George was engaged in illegal activity?

Oh that’s right - it doesn’t say that at all.

34

[thankyou.gif] [welldone.gif] [winner.gif] a lot of armchair lawyers on this board. i hope things work out for you George. That is a terrible situation to be in. A friend of mine had an unfortunate encounter with Stephen Frye, for an amount similar to yours. It took some dogged efforts, and the involvement of the police, but he eventually got his money back. I truly hope you get a similar resolution. And yes, the forumite who posted these absolutely has a duty to the buyer to do everything in her efforts to bring this to a satisfactory conclusion.

35

+1000

36

I’m not saying she is legally on the hook, although I can imagine circumstances where she may be, but this deal got done on her reputation here. Personally I would be doing everything I could to make George whole as I imagine many of you would.

37

And we don’t know that she isn’t, so perhaps speculation about her conduct is poorly timed

38

+1000

39

Did the person deposit the check or cash the check? If deposited, contact the bank…Banks do not like to deal with fraudsters.

40

Bad form to blame George in my opinion.

I’m usually the first one to say “You had this coming”… but I don’t think that applies here. I also agree that the referring board member needs to be very actively involved in resolving this matter.