Judgement of Paris anyone?
Ultimately irrelevant to the original point, but an interesting side discussion. At the highest and broadest levels I would agree that I would take White Burgundy over any of their counterparts. That being said, I have found far more enjoyment from Massican whites than almost any $30 White Burgundy. The Meursaults and Chassagnes I used to buy for $40 to $50 are now $80 to $90 and donāt really provide that much value any more. Great wines, for sure, but it is nice to find alternatives elsewhere at a more reasonable price.
Nah. That was before California finally started making great white wines.
Ramey still sets the bar for US Chardonnay IMO. The mentions of Massican, Matthiasson, Ceritas, Kutch, etc. also ring true.
Unfortunately there will always be this nebulous distinction of great, world class or better than on a completely subjective assessment. I happen to find most White Burgundy (save Chablis) wildly overrated for its price level, but clearly some others would disagree.
So of course California is making great white wine. Itās just not for everyoneās taste. Same goes for every wine region.
I must say I found the topic a little odd, but then, different strokes for different folks.
I am certainly fond of many of the wines mentioned, but I think there were excellent Calif whites before 2005.
Au Bon Climat chardonnays,
Qupe Marsanne etc
Chalone whites have held up gloriously
Foxen
Mt Edenā¦now everyoneās fave
Calera Viognier and Chardonnay
Bonny Doon made Le Sophiste, a Rhonish white blend
Iāve been at dinners in Burgundy where the Mondavi Reserve Chardonnay was served blind and everyone tried to guess which villageā¦heh hehā¦I have so many stories like this.
If you recall the old Dick Arrowood late harvest Rieslings, I poured one blind for my tasting group, and they were all asking where I got the German Trockenbeerenauslese.
Absolutely true. A young Ramey or Aubert, not to mention Rhys chardonnay is pretty damn good. Would be fun to do another Judgment of Paris today with some GC Burgs lined up against the best of California. Who is up to the challenge?
+1
Indeed, one could go so far as to say something like the 1980 Chalone Reserve Chardonnay from a cold cellar would be more competitive with a great white Burgundy of the same era than any of the excellent California whites being made today.
Count me in, but it would be very easy to tell which one was the Aubert (I have done this)ā¦
Is that mostly because of new oak percentage, or fruit characteristics?
Side by side, they taste fatter, richer, more alcoholic. Analytically, a lot of GC white Burgundies have similar alcohols and see just as much new oak. But, side by side, my experience has been that it isnāt hard to tell which is which. I try to do this sort of thing from time to time as it ākeeps one honestā, but it has been a few years, perhaps itās time to do it again.
Don Cornwell has put Ramey wines into blind tastings of older white Burgundies and they have done very well.
It seems to me that Aubert wines would be picked out more easily as California.
As I recall Peter Watson GraffāDickās brother-made the '80 and '81 Chalones and those wines have held up well. Michael Michaud replaced him and his wines have also held up well.
Twenty years later Dan Karlsen, one of the funnier and smarter people on the planet, followed and his philosophy was to make wines for immediate drinking. Then Diageo bought the placeā¦
There was a repeat of the Paris tasting ten years ago or so. Ridge and Mayacamas triumphed in the Cab part. With Chardonnay they used newer wines and Talley did well as I recall.
Talley is a winery that doesnāt get much play here but makes terrific whites every year. Au Bon Climat buys grapes from them and those wines are quite drinkable.
On the Aubert side, the only exception Iāve had was a 2002 opened in 2012 that smelled and tasted for all the world like a Chevy.
Agree that before 2005 there were some memorable Cali whites for me. Any number of Kalin Cellars fit the bill, Araujo Eisele Sauv Blanc and, back then, I seem to remember liking Londer Chards a lot. Littorai was already turning out top rank juice. And the Mt. Edens and Ridge Montebellosā¦
Have to mention Quivira for their Sav Blancs. They also make a pretty great viognier.
Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.
And, of course, earlier Marcassin. The 1996 Marcassin Hudson E Block Chard might still reign as the best CaliChard Iāve ever had and probably is in the top 30 all-time white wines.
Well, a lot of chateau owners and French critics were pretty sure which wines were which in '76. I realize this was before you were born!!! ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
Come on now, letās line them up with a neutral party overseeing the lot and have a go at it. Doubt the Burgundians have much to lose (except some pride). It would be another story to compare these on value, as I doubt the Montrachet and clans will taste 10x better that some of those American upstarts.
True, but then they probably had less experience tasting American wines than meā¦ I have worked harvest in California, make wine in California, and reviewed Californian wines professionally for three years. To be clear, Iām just saying it would be easy to pick out Aubert (or Marcassin, Ferren, Kistler). There are plenty of California Chardonnays that would be easy to confuse with Burgundy blind: things such as Sandhi and Rhys at the racier end of the spectrum, all the way to Ramey and perhaps even Kongsgaard at the richer end of the spectrum. Itās not just about power and weight but also about style and flavor profile.
I actually once did a tasting such as this where results were properly moderated, and 1995 Kalin Cellars CH and 2002 DRC Montrachet came out joint firstā¦
As for pricing, thatās an interesting one. Ex-domaine, Ramonet BĆ¢tard is cheaper than Aubert Sugar Shack, and Niellonās Chevalier is cheaper than Marcassin. So comparing allocation pricing with allocation pricing (as opposed to retail), the white Burgundies are arguably better value.
That is really the critical difference. In the entire spectrum of Chardonnay styles, Burgundian Chardonnay is principally at one end of the spectrum. They are very good that end of the spectrum, but they stay at that end. In contrast, in California you can get excellent examples from a much broader range of styles. I do not like California Chardonnay is with pHs below 2.0 because I intend to keep my teeth until I die. Other people like that type of Chardonnay and more power to them. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who like the oft-ridiculed Rombauer Chardonnay, which is the extreme at the other end of the spectrum. California Chardonnay gives you the opportunity to select the style you prefer, while Burgundian Chardonnay, albeit outstanding in many cases, tells you what style of Chardonnay to like.
As to other grapes, California makes an excellent version of some grapes, but not of others. Not a big deal, because that is true everywhere else in the world. You canāt get good Cabernet Sauvignon from The Rhine or Mosel. I wouldnāt say you canāt get good Riesling from California, because I havenāt tasted them all, but all those I have tried, are quite awful. I have certainly had plenty of excellent white RhĆ“ne varietals from California, including some excellent Viognier and Roussane.
Between things such as Domaine de la Bongran from VirĆ©-ClessĆ© at always >14% alcohol, with botrytis and a few grams of RS, to the raciest wines of Chablisāvia the ample, enveloping grands crus of Chassagne and Pulingy and the steelier wines of Saint-Aubin or Saint-RomaināI would say that Burgundian Chardonnay spans just as big a gap as the continuum that begins with Ceritas and ends with Marcassin.